S2, E11: How the Host of a Must-Watch Nature Show Confronts Climate Change

What will our planet look like in seven years as the effects of climate change intensify, and what steps can we take to address it? That’s the focus of the PBS series *Changing Planet*, now in its second season, which is documenting the impact of climate change on six of the world’s most fragile ecosystems over the next seven years.

In the first season, host M. Sanjayan—CEO of Conservation International and a Dinogo Travel Vanguard honoree—explores the savannahs of Kenya and the rivers of California to examine the real-world impacts of climate change and meet the communities combating them. Season two, which launched on April 19, takes Sanjayan to Australia, where he joins Aboriginal people teaching the government traditional fire management practices. In this week’s *Unpacked* podcast, we sit down with Sanjayan to discuss the significance of Indigenous knowledge, actions we can all take to help the planet, and how he stays motivated despite the overwhelming challenges.

Transcript

M. Sanjayan: If you push me to answer, I’d say I tend to be generally optimistic. I believe that tomorrow will always be better than today. However, that’s not really the right mindset here. The better question is, 'Can you do something about it?'

Aislyn Greene, host: That’s M. Sanjayan, the host of PBS's *Changing Planet*, a groundbreaking series that will revisit six of the world’s most endangered ecosystems over the next seven years—from Greenland’s ice sheets to the vast plains of Kenya. It’s hard to watch this series, which is stunningly filmed, without feeling a renewed sense of hope for our planet and the steps we can all take to protect it.

I’m Aislyn Greene, and this is *Unpacked*, the podcast where we dive deep into one complex travel topic every week. This week, I’m speaking with Sanjayan about his work on season two of *Changing Planet*, which premiered on April 19th. He had just returned from the Maldives, where he was recording for season three, and had so much to share about the value of Indigenous knowledge, the small actions each of us can take to help the environment, and how he stays motivated when things seem bleak.

The show shines a spotlight on the individuals and communities who are truly making a difference, and serves as a natural extension of Sanjayan’s broader work. For the past six years, he’s been the CEO of Conservation International, an organization focused on securing nature for future generations, particularly in the Global South. (In fact, I first came across Sanjayan’s incredible work at Conservation International in 2018, when we honored him as part of Dinogo’s Travel Vanguard—celebrating the visionaries who are changing the travel world for the better.)

So join me for what I think is a truly inspiring conversation. And be sure to stick around afterwards for a new segment called “How do you say that?” where we explore useful travel-related phrases in different languages. This week, we’ll learn the proper way to greet someone in Swahili.

But before we dive in, let’s hear from Sanjayan.

Aislyn: Thank you so much for joining us today. It's such a pleasure to have you on *Unpacked*. I’m really excited to chat with you.

Sanjayan: Thank you! It’s a pleasure to be here as well.

Aislyn: Fantastic. There’s so much we’re going to dive into, but first I just want to say a huge congratulations on the second season of *Changing Planet*. It's truly an impactful and eye-opening show.

Sanjayan: Thanks a lot. I actually just returned from filming part of season three.

Aislyn: Oh, wow! Where did you go for that?

Sanjayan: I was in the Maldives. It's a location we've already featured on the show, and we've actually had two seasons filmed there. I hadn’t visited before, so I caught up on the footage. Looking ahead, we're planning to focus more on the oceans in the next season, so it was great to get a deeper look at the region.

Aislyn: I see. Got it.

Sanjayan: It was a truly eye-opening experience.

Aislyn: What made it so eye-opening for you?

Sanjayan: There’s so much to take in. First, the fragility of the entire atoll. It’s deeply reliant on tourism, in fact, it’s the second most tourism-dependent country in the world. And the atolls themselves are incredibly low-lying, so their survival is really at risk.

In the Maldives, the highest point you can find is about six feet above sea level, so you can imagine how fragile the ecosystem is. The local population is deeply reliant on the oceans for their livelihood, and they're facing challenges like rising sea levels and coral bleaching, which directly affect their main source of income. It's an incredibly beautiful place, but also one that's in urgent need of help.

Aislyn: How do you see tourism affecting the Maldives?

Sanjayan: Tourism is absolutely the lifeblood of the Maldives. It drives a huge part of the economy. Of course, there are impacts: air travel, infrastructure development, the construction of luxury resorts, and the large number of people who travel to these high-end destinations. But overall, tourism has been beneficial to the country.

Tourism has allowed the community, the government, and the tourism industry to rise to the challenges posed by climate change and conservation. The place we stayed, Six Senses Maldives, is a hub for scientific research. The atoll it’s situated on has been a leader in groundbreaking coral restoration efforts. They’re taking a broader approach, working at the scale of the entire atoll, which is much more impactful than simply planting coral polyps. The Six Senses is not just sustainable but also 'ocean-positive' and 'reef-positive,' which is a model other resorts could follow.

Aislyn: That's so inspiring! Do they offer ways for travelers to get involved in this work?

Sanjayan: Yes, you can absolutely get involved. While I was there more as an observer, guests can take part in various aspects of the resort’s sustainability efforts. This includes everything from turtle conservation to coral restoration and even learning sustainable farming practices on the island. But I have to say, their research into reef conservation is particularly impressive.

Aislyn: And there's a strong argument for travelers coming to these places, grasping their significance, and then returning home with that newfound understanding, right? It’s about realizing the importance of preserving these places.

Sanjayan: When travelers visit a place like this, they definitely get an up-close look at why conservation, sustainability, and climate change matter. But the problem is that the impact of that experience fades quite quickly after they leave.

Research shows that the 'vacation glow'—that sense of well-being after a trip—tends to fade fast. The same thing happens with our immediate commitment to make a change or care more deeply about an issue. It’s often short-lived.

What we see and feel in the moment may inspire us to take action, but unfortunately, that motivation doesn't last for long. It's a challenge we face when trying to keep people engaged in long-term change.

One of the most powerful things we can do is to keep the connection to the story of a place alive—its significance, its history, and why it matters. I’m not exactly sure how to make this happen, but if we can figure it out, it would help make the experience much more memorable and impactful over time.

Interestingly, after my stay at Six Senses, they sent me a survey. Since we had such a positive experience and appreciated their efforts, I took the time to fill it out—something I don’t usually do with surveys from airlines or other companies. I specifically highlighted their sustainability and research initiatives, commending them for their work and encouraging them to do more.

To my surprise, I received a quick, personalized response that wasn’t a generic form letter. It was clear someone had read my feedback, acknowledged it, and reflected on why the sustainability work was important. That interaction stuck with me, and it kept the conversation going for weeks. And here I am, sharing it with you now.

Aislyn: That’s fantastic.

Sanjayan: Exactly. I even mentioned it to my wife recently. That’s the kind of connection we need to create. If we can do that, not only will travelers have a more meaningful experience, but businesses will also benefit from repeat visitors who feel more engaged and informed.

Aislyn: That’s a great point. Given how immersed we are in the travel world, how do we maintain that sense of conservation once people return to their everyday lives?

Stepping back a bit, how would you say that your show Changing Planet aligns with the work you've been doing at Conservation International?

Sanjayan: The core focus of our work at Conservation International has always been simple: humans need nature to thrive. We are deeply interconnected with the environment, and the survival of both relies on the other.

That might sound obvious now, but 35 years ago, it was revolutionary. Back then, conservation was about preserving the wild parts of nature for their own sake, with little focus on the people living in those environments.

While it's important to protect nature for its own value, Conservation International realized early on that in the regions where we work—often in remote, challenging places like Cambodia, Suriname, Indonesia, Botswana, and Brazil—we must also prioritize the well-being of the people who live there if we want to make lasting change.

For this to truly succeed, it's essential that local communities see and embrace the vision. If I come in from the outside, pushing for something to be protected without local buy-in, the impact will only last as long as my funding. It won't have lasting power. The key idea—that humans and nature are interconnected, and that we're protecting nature for humanity’s benefit—is the foundation of Conservation International and this show. I’ve hosted many documentaries, but this one is unique in that it spans a long period of time, revisiting places year after year.

It’s rare to see a show that extends over several years, creating a long-term record of the same places and communities. By revisiting these areas, we can witness the changes firsthand, and the immediacy of this approach allows us to tailor the message each year to what’s happening at that moment.

When we talk about a changing planet, we must remember that it's humans observing and interpreting that change. It’s our perspective that sees the transformation and it’s our actions that can address the challenges those changes bring. The stories covered in Changing Planet are central to what we care about at Conservation International. While they aren’t all directly linked to our work, they are stories that matter deeply to us.

A significant focus of the show is on Indigenous and local knowledge. Across the world, people have been living in these landscapes for millennia. In Australia, for example, Indigenous communities have been there for over 60,000 years. Their wisdom is embedded in their cultural practices, passed down through generations.

The depth of their knowledge is extraordinary—it’s like tapping into a form of AI that’s been refined over thousands of years. It’s not always easy to understand how or why they do certain things, but the practices they follow are incredibly effective. It’s collective wisdom honed through experience and adaptation to the land, and it's something we can all learn from.

When you look at the Western experience on landscapes like Australia or North America, it spans just a few hundred years. In contrast, Indigenous wisdom in these regions dates back thousands of years. In places like Europe, the connection to the land goes back a few millennia. To me, this long history of Indigenous knowledge is something we’re sorely lacking. If the planet is undergoing such dramatic changes, shouldn’t we seek insight from the people who have witnessed and lived through those changes for generations? They hold the answers we need.

When you combine that ancient wisdom with modern scientific understanding, you’ve got a truly powerful solution for tackling the challenges our planet faces.

Absolutely. I love that focus on Indigenous knowledge. In fact, I think it was in the first episode of season two where we visited California and saw the incredible impact of reintroducing beavers. One area, protected by this simple act, remained safe from fires. It was truly eye-opening.

Yes, and the Yurok people fought for the right to return to their traditional fire-lighting practices. This wasn’t just about fire, though. The Yurok see themselves as the original stewards of Earth, believing that their spiritual role is to restore the planet. Their seasonal fires, for instance, create a smoke barrier that cools the rivers, triggering the salmon to run upstream. It’s a practice that’s as much about balance as it is about survival.

Their belief system is deeply connected to the land. When they light their fires, it’s part of a larger ecosystem restoration process. It’s remarkable how these cultural practices have shaped their environment for centuries—and how they continue to do so today.

Oh, I had no idea about that.

I was completely unaware of that too. I didn’t realize that the way they managed the land was so deeply connected to how they managed the salmon population.

That's incredible. Truly remarkable.

It’s almost miraculous. They’re trying to revive those practices now, but honestly, it’s on a small scale because so much of the land has already been altered. When I visited Australia last December, I traveled to the Gibson Desert—an area the size of Denmark with only a few hundred people living there. It’s a vast, expansive landscape, and the Indigenous cultural practices there are still very much alive. These aren’t people trying to reclaim what was lost—they’ve always lived in harmony with this land.

Now, science and government are looking to learn from them, to figure out how to apply and expand these practices to larger territories. This is one of the themes you'll see explored in this season—the scaling of Indigenous knowledge to help manage and protect larger landscapes, especially in areas where those practices are still in use.

So, going back to that initial idea, how did you end up choosing those six locations to track over the next seven years?

I wish I could say the decision was made with a master plan, but we did have a little obstacle to navigate—COVID-19.

Ah, yes, of course.

COVID definitely had a bigger impact on the process than we would’ve liked. But in the end, I think we landed on a solid selection. We aimed for a balance of ecosystems that would provide a rich variety of stories and allow for flexibility in our approach.

Because, let’s be honest, you’re not going to see a significant change in something like a redwood tree in just seven years—or even thirty years. That kind of growth takes centuries. So when selecting these stories, it was crucial to choose ones where we could realistically return and witness meaningful progress or shifts over time.

We knew from the start we wanted to include a U.S. location, and when it comes to climate change in America, you’re really looking at either the Florida and Louisiana coastlines or California. Given the scale of the environmental challenges in California, from wildfires to the state’s reputation as a climate frontrunner, it made sense. California has progressive policies and cutting-edge science to manage its land, with large national parks, protected wilderness, and a significant Indigenous presence—more than any other state, which was surprising to me.

So, California became an obvious choice as a focal point for climate change. That one was easy. We’d also always wanted to feature Australia, but COVID lockdowns prevented us from doing so in season one.

I see, got it.

But if you really want to understand what the future may hold for the rest of the world, look no further than Australia. Because it’s in the Southern Hemisphere, the effects of climate change hit harder and faster than what we’re seeing in the Northern Hemisphere. The impacts are undeniable. And of course, we all know about the catastrophic fires that ravaged the country in 2019 and 2020.

Australia was a must for us. Then there’s the Amazon, the largest rainforest on Earth, of course. We also wanted to include Southeast Asia, particularly its vast river systems. So, we selected Cambodia. And of course, we needed a location in the Arctic. Originally, we thought about Iceland, but then we shifted our focus to a broader Arctic narrative for a more holistic view of the region’s challenges.

I’ve always been drawn to atolls because they’re at the frontlines of climate change. They’re incredibly vulnerable. We initially considered the Great Barrier Reef, but since we couldn’t film there in the first season, the Maldives turned out to be a perfect alternative. Then, we knew we needed a story from Africa to highlight the iconic wildlife and landscapes. The Horn of Africa, with its ongoing droughts and failed rains over the past few years, was a major focal point for us.

These places also hold incredible stories, and every single one we’ve uncovered has blown me away. Seriously, the stories we’re telling on Changing Planet are like nothing I’ve encountered in any other series. The depth and richness of what we’re discovering is phenomenal, and I just wish we had more time to dive deeper into each one.

Yeah, I agree. The show really does have that impact—it’s impossible to look away. The cinematography alone grabs you from the start. So, now that you’re able to revisit Australia, do you plan to keep going back year after year?

We’re definitely planning to revisit these locations over time. Will we go back every single year? Not completely sure, because it depends on how much change we can document from one year to the next.

For instance, we might skip California for a year and return later when there’s more noticeable change to capture. But the goal is to revisit all of these ecosystems at different points, though factors like logistics and budget may make it necessary to prioritize some locations more than others.

We’ve visited Kenya three times now, each time following up on the changes we’ve observed there.

For example, we’ve returned to the Amazon twice, tracking the same story. Australia was my first visit, but the experience was so incredible that I’m certain I’ll revisit at least one part of it. One trip took me deep into central Australia, to the Gibson Desert, where I spent time with the Pintupi tribe.

Here’s something that completely stunned me: Two members of the Pintupi tribe I met were what we call ‘first contact’ people. They were only ‘discovered’ in 1984. Can you believe it? That was the same year I was in high school. Before then, they had never encountered Westerners or even other people.

It’s even more fascinating because they were part of a branch of the tribe known as the Pintupi Nine, who had remained completely isolated, never assimilated or even contacted by the outside world until that moment.

They’ve always lived in the remote areas of the desert, maintaining their way of life untouched by the modern world until they came into contact with us.

My primary guide through that story was an extraordinary woman. Until about the age of 18 or 19—though she’s not exactly sure of her age—she lived without any Western clothing, no metal tools or weapons, no wheel, and no real agriculture. The only domesticated animal she knew was a dingo. She slept on the ground, in the dirt, living a completely nomadic, hunter-gatherer lifestyle in one of the harshest environments. Listening to her recount her life was one of the most profound experiences I’ve ever had.

Aislyn: Was she the one who described that first moment in a car, when she thought the land was moving away? That moment was just unforgettable.

Sanjayan: Yes, exactly. She was in the car, watching the trees, hills, and rocks seemingly retreat from her, and she couldn’t understand why. It was like Einstein’s theory of relativity in real life.

Aislyn: Yeah, it’s all relative. And what an apt metaphor for climate change.

Sanjayan: Absolutely.

Aislyn: That was truly remarkable.

Sanjayan: Wow, I never even made that connection. You’re absolutely right. And what was so fascinating about it was that while she speaks English, she can’t read or write.

Every time she shared a story with me, she would immediately start drawing intricate patterns in the sand. It was something she did naturally. She found it easier to communicate by speaking and drawing at the same time. The designs she created were stunning—like the ancient art we see in museums or etched into rocks. She was producing it all in real time.

Aislyn: That raises an interesting question. How did you build the relationships that granted you such incredible access?

Sanjayan: I have to give credit to the BBC and PBS teams. The BBC produced this, and their crew is exceptional. They are fantastic researchers with an extensive ability to uncover amazing stories.

They walk me through a range of topics, and while I do have some say in what sounds intriguing, the bulk of the groundwork is done by them. Once I’m on-site, though, the rest is up to me as the host. I have two main tricks. First, I’m genuinely curious about people and what they have to share. I’ve realized I never learn anything while I’m talking, so even though I’m quite vocal now, I’m perfectly fine with listening and letting them tell their story. Second, I have an instinct for finding the right narrative.

I also think there’s something about me that’s a little different, but not entirely out of place. I grew up in West Africa after being born in Sri Lanka, and later received most of my higher education in the West. So, there’s this global citizen element to me that helps me connect with people and navigate spaces where I can have meaningful conversations on somewhat equal footing.

Aislyn: You also approach these interactions with immense respect for the wisdom you encounter, and I think that’s always apparent. Another thing that stands out is your honesty, especially in season one when you speak about this overwhelming sense of impending doom as you travel around the world.

And yet, in many ways, the show is about hope and your effort to keep that hope alive. How do you balance those conflicting feelings of despair and optimism?

Sanjayan: Well, I’d say a few things. Yes, I definitely experience moments of despair, like many of us in this field do. There are days, even weeks, where it feels like we’re fighting an uphill battle.

People often ask whether I’m an optimist or a pessimist, but I think that's the wrong question. If pressed, I’d say I tend to lean towards optimism, as I generally believe things will improve tomorrow compared to today. But the real question isn’t about optimism or pessimism—it's about whether you can do something to make a difference.

What I would say is that I’m determined. I feel a sense of purpose, a real agency. There are countless forces on this planet right now that we have little to no control over—things like the war in Ukraine, the U.S.-China tensions, or the next global pandemic. These are monumental challenges that often feel overwhelming.

Of course, we can all make some impact. We can vote, support important causes, and we should. But it’s crucial to focus on the things where we have a tangible effect, where we truly have agency. In conservation and climate, I know I can make a difference. So every morning, I wake up knowing exactly what I need to do. And that sense of purpose gives me agency. It’s the agency that pulls you out of despair. When you don’t know what to do, that's when it’s easiest to fall into apathy.

Aislyn: Absolutely. Apathy can be paralyzing, can’t it?

Sanjayan: It’s true. Think about a salmon swimming upstream. I once caught one on the border of Montana and Idaho—completely by accident. I had no idea they could get that far. This salmon had traveled 400 miles from the Pacific Ocean, crossing four dams as a baby and then four more as it swam back up. And there it was, right on the border, in the Lochsa River, 50 miles from Missoula, Montana.

Imagine if that fish knew everything it had to face—four dams, then seals, sea lions, killer whales, years in the ocean without being caught, and then making the journey all over again just to die at the end. If it knew all that, it would have never left the hatchery.

Aislyn: No, definitely not.

Sanjayan: And yet, when that fish reaches the river mouth, it has one thing on its mind: purpose. Every bone, every fiber, every cell is screaming, 'Swim upstream. Find a cool, shady spot with pebbles, a fast-flowing stream, and spawn.' That purpose is what drives it forward, keeps it going.

Aislyn: So, be like a salmon.

Sanjayan: Exactly. Be a salmon. Have purpose in your life—that’s the best antidote to feeling lost or down.

Aislyn: What do you hope viewers will take away from the show in terms of action and agency? What do you want them to feel inspired to do?

Sanjayan: You know, this season is a bit of a departure from the first one. In the first season, we were still finding our footing, but if you enjoyed those stories, season two will take things to a whole new level. It really will.

We end up developing a central idea: even if, by some miracle, all of our energy use—electricity, food production, transportation—switched to green energy overnight, we would still miss the climate goals needed for a livable planet. That’s the reality. The Paris Climate Agreement targets would still be out of reach. And that’s because of the destruction of nature. Our assault on nature is responsible for releasing 12.5 gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere through things like deforestation, bad agricultural practices, and livestock farming. It’s a huge issue.

But the key takeaway is that the best thing we can do, the greatest return on investment, is to reduce that 12.5 gigatons of carbon emissions to zero—and even better, go into negative territory. The real question is: how can we turn nature into our ally in the fight against climate change, rather than the adversary it has become due to our own actions? This season really provides a roadmap for getting involved. It shows how restoring the land is directly connected to combating climate change and highlights where we still need to make progress.

So, in season two, the stories become much more action-oriented. They give you the tools to understand how healing the land is a crucial part of tackling climate change, and how you can play a role in that.

For someone out there listening, who really cares but feels stuck and unsure about what to do, my advice is: don’t stay paralyzed. Every little action you take matters, so make it count. Let me give you three practical things you can start with. First, be mindful of how much you waste.

One area where waste sneaks up on us is food waste. Even I find myself guilty of it sometimes. For example, the amount of water I boil just for my coffee in the morning isn’t ideal.

It's not just about the coffee you drink—it's about the energy spent on the process. The sink, not you, is actually the biggest consumer of coffee in your household. Think about all the energy used to bring the water there, and then to boil it for just one cup of coffee.

All of this energy—just to boil water, transport it, and make that one cup—is a huge waste. It adds up in ways we don’t often think about.

This happens everywhere in your home: from the fridge to how you cook and shop. Small changes in your eating, cooking, and waste habits not only help the planet but will save you money too.

Making these changes is likely to be healthier for you and will have a significant, positive impact on the planet. It's simple, and there's really no reason not to make it happen. So that's the first step.

Second, there are incredible tools available now, like FinTech apps, that can simplify this process for you. You can upgrade everything in your home—from windows to solar panels, to how you manage your garden—all rolled into your mortgage. It makes the whole thing much more manageable.

Third, think about becoming 'nature positive.' Support conservation efforts, whether they’re local, regional, or global. It doesn’t matter—just get involved. Donate, volunteer, join a conservation group. Every little bit helps tip the scale in the right direction for the climate. When it comes to travel, be mindful about where you stay and how you get there.

I still believe there's value in offsetting, though it’s not a perfect solution. If you're traveling, it’s worth making the effort to offset or contribute positively to counterbalance the environmental cost of your trip.

Aislyn: We've discussed that quite a bit, and it really struck me in season one, seeing the direct impact of carbon credit programs in Kenya. It was truly inspiring. I’m curious, though, because I know carbon offsets can be controversial—did your work shift your perspective on these programs?

Sanjayan: My work hasn't really shifted my viewpoint; if anything, it's only strengthened it.

Look, if there were a miracle that could suddenly provide all the funding needed to protect and restore forests, I'd be all for it. But after a lifetime in conservation and raising funds, I can tell you—it’s incredibly challenging to make that happen.

What we truly need is a much broader and more systematic approach to funding the preservation and restoration of carbon-rich areas. These forests are vital—if they’re lost, their carbon value is irretrievable. Beyond carbon storage, they offer rural jobs, pollination, water resources, medicinal plants, ecotourism, and more.

These forests are also massive carbon sinks. Losing them would spell disaster for our climate goals. So we need effective funding mechanisms in place. Carbon credits could play a role, but they need to be used properly. They shouldn’t be a loophole for polluters to keep polluting. Instead, they should accelerate progress toward actual climate goals. This approach is exactly what we saw in Kenya’s Chyula Hills, and I'm planning to return there privately soon.

The project in Kenya continues to thrive. It’s now generating around 10 million dollars for the local community and government for conservation, all without outside funding. What started as a philanthropic conservation effort is now self-sustaining and self-perpetuating.

Aislyn: Wow.

Sanjayan: Yes, it's not without its challenges—it's far from perfect. But consider this: 140,000 people are benefiting from the project. During one of the worst droughts, it was one of the few sources of water. The forest and wildlife are still thriving. So, when done right, with fair revenue sharing for communities directly involved in conservation and proper monitoring, these initiatives can truly make a difference.

Of course, as with any emerging field, there are bad actors, but there are also many doing it right. Then there’s direct carbon capture, where carbon is pulled from the air and stored underground. This technology is still in its infancy, expanding, but it's currently a small part of the market and remains expensive.

Aislyn: I see.

Sanjayan: Nature-based solutions, like protecting and restoring forests and mangroves to capture carbon, are a win-win-win—provided they're executed properly.

Aislyn: Mm-hmm. That ties in with the theme of resilience you’ve highlighted throughout the series. I remember one episode where someone was working with coral to make it more resistant to higher temperatures. I love the idea that it's not just about restoring nature, but also about helping it—and us—adapt.

Sanjayan: Coral reefs are a perfect example. Nature is already conducting its own experiments in the real world. It's called evolution.

If we're astute enough to recognize these natural signals, these bright spots, and learn how to replicate them on a larger scale, we can let nature do most of the work while we support it. That's essentially the approach with coral restoration.

There are a couple of strategies being explored. One is identifying naturally warmer areas of the ocean, like the Red Sea, where some coral species have shown resilience to temperature changes. We could study why they’re resistant, propagate these corals in labs, and then transplant them to reefs to aid in their restoration.

At the moment, these efforts are mostly limited to small-scale restoration—just a few hectares. For example, you can make a significant impact on a reef right in front of a resort or lodge, but scaling that up is still a challenge.

There are other approaches that are even more exciting to me because they offer scalability, and that’s something you’ll continue to see in this show as it unfolds. This season and the next, we’re focusing on how scientists have figured out ways to collect massive amounts of coral spawn—think 200 million at once—and either scatter them on reefs or use bioacoustics, signals from the reef itself, to promote coral spawning.

Aislyn: Oh, that's fascinating.

Sanjayan: How do we enhance nature’s signals to increase the success rate of reef-building corals? To me, that’s one of the most exciting aspects. I don’t want to spoil too much, but it was truly mind-blowing.

Aislyn: Wow.

Sanjayan: The discoveries I witnessed were incredible—some of them will be featured in season three. It was such a jaw-dropping experience because we were there filming real-time science as it was happening, and the findings were just beyond anything I expected.

Aislyn: That's amazing. What’s taking you to Kenya?

Sanjayan: I'm heading there through Conservation International. The main goal is to see some of the carbon projects in action, and potentially expand them into the Masai Mara. It’s a vast grassland ecosystem, with over a million tourists each year. Tourism is the main revenue driver for the Mara. But if we can add carbon initiatives on top, it could help with conservation and reduce the dependency on tourism. Because when COVID hit, tourism dropped to zero, just like that. It was a huge blow to the communities there.

The impact was immediate, like a faucet being turned off. It was incredibly tough on local communities. We stepped in with loans to help them survive that tough period.

The loan program actually worked out really well. The funds are being repaid now because the recovery came faster than expected—tourism boomed again. Planes are full, lodges are packed, which is great. But for the long term, we need to think beyond tourism. The Mara and the Serengeti are global treasures, but relying solely on tourism is too fragile. One event—a pandemic or something else—and it could collapse again.

So we’re exploring ways to fund essential conservation work year-round. By using carbon revenue, we could buffer the seasonal ups and downs of tourism, providing a steady stream of funding that helps with long-term planning and community support.

Aislyn: Right. And does this help to reduce poaching as well? You've discussed before the tension between protecting animals and supporting human livelihoods. It’s a tricky balance.

Sanjayan: Most of the poaching in these iconic areas now stems from human-wildlife conflict. It's mostly about competition for resources like water and grazing land. Then, there’s also the poaching for trophies like ivory and rhino horn, which has significantly decreased in recent years.

The good news is that in Kenya, and much of East Africa, poaching for ivory has drastically declined. China closed its markets, and other countries like the U.S. and the U.K. have followed suit, which has driven the price of ivory down. Nowadays, elephants are mostly killed due to conflict with people.

Elephants are primarily being killed for raiding crops, or because worsening droughts and water scarcity force both animals and people to compete for the limited resources that remain.

Aislyn: Right. Like that community we saw, where they had set up the fake bee hives to protect their crops from elephants.

Sanjayan: Exactly. Using bees, chili peppers, and other methods to deter elephants works to some degree. It’s a smart strategy, but it’s not foolproof. If animals are desperate enough, these solutions aren’t always enough.

Aislyn: That brings up a big question—what do you hope to see in five years when the show is coming to a close?

Sanjayan: There are two things I’m anticipating. First, I expect to see the scaling of some of the innovative approaches we’ve highlighted, like coral restoration in the Maldives or land management through controlled fire in Yurok Country and Australia with the Pintubi.

Additionally, I’m hopeful to see the expansion and success of carbon projects, particularly blue carbon initiatives and the work being done in the Chyulu Hills. I see these projects growing and making a real impact.

In the next five years, I believe we’ll come back and witness how many of these early-stage initiatives have evolved and flourished into something truly transformative.

I expect to discover even more groundbreaking ideas, passionate individuals, and inspiring projects over the next few years. Right now, we have a relatively small collection of stories, but in five years, I believe we’ll have a vast collection—a true encyclopedia—of remarkable people who will inspire others and show them that change is possible. We can all take action, and together, we can make a difference.

I’m also hoping to see a stronger collaboration between Indigenous knowledge and Western science, as that intersection holds incredible potential. At the moment, Indigenous voices are often sidelined in conservation efforts, and I’d love to see that shift.

It would be powerful to see these two approaches—Indigenous wisdom and Western science—work hand in hand toward the shared goal of preserving a planet where we all can thrive.

Aislyn: That’s such a beautiful vision.

Sanjayan: Sadly, I also anticipate witnessing some environmental disasters in the coming years. Climate change isn’t slowing down—it’s accelerating. I’m certain we’ll film places that, in five or six years, won’t even exist anymore because of the irreversible damage they’ll have suffered. Some of these landscapes will be gone.

Aislyn: That's a tough one. Do you think the show could help shift perspectives, especially given the larger forces driving these issues? Can it contribute to changing the narrative in any way?

Sanjayan: Definitely, I believe it will. Part of the impact will come from highlighting fresh solutions, like nature-based carbon offsets, which are still relatively new concepts. They’ve only been in use for about five or six years, so there’s a lot of room for growth.

These methods have the potential to scale up, becoming more common and more effectively regulated over time. This could be a powerful tool in our fight against climate change and in the preservation of biodiversity. I'm confident we'll see improvement in this area, and I believe there's a growing awareness of blue carbon, which we cover extensively in episode two, and its immense promise.

Giving Indigenous voices a prominent platform is another area where we see huge potential. Yes, I think this show will play a role in shaping the minds of policymakers, business leaders, and other influential figures.

But above all, what I really hope to achieve is to inspire viewers to realize that change can take many forms and come from all corners of the world. I want them to understand that they too have the power to create change in their own communities. These are ordinary people doing extraordinary things.

The people we meet aren't necessarily extraordinary, even though we often describe them that way. They are simply ordinary individuals confronting challenges they never imagined—challenges that require them to tap into new technology, collaborate, innovate, or rely on Indigenous wisdom to overcome.

Aislyn: Exactly, and that’s what makes them extraordinary—stepping up, taking action, and doing what’s needed.

Sanjayan: Exactly, stepping up is key. And there's another subtle message here. This show is unique in that it not only features me as the host, but for season two, we’re also bringing in two incredible new presenters: Ade, a British Paralympian, and Ella, who comes from the Horn of Africa or the Middle East. They bring perspectives you don't typically see in the environmental space.

Both Ade and Ella will join me on the trip to Kenya, and their diverse backgrounds make for a refreshing dynamic. It’s also the first time I’ve worked with such a diverse team, and it really enhances the show. Every story we tell is from the perspective of the local communities, and they are at the forefront of narrating their own experiences.

I don’t interpret their stories for them; they tell their own stories directly. What I love about this show is its diversity, especially since the impact of climate change, biodiversity loss, and the erosion of nature is most acutely felt in the Global South.

I believe the solutions will come from the Global South. Honestly, I’m a bit tired of hearing that all the answers must come from the West. What I love about our approach is that we don’t follow that model at all.

Aislyn: Absolutely, I agree. That’s a refreshing perspective. Congratulations on that.

Sanjayan: It’s truly different. When you watch season two, keep that in mind and you’ll see what I mean. There’s really nothing else like it in the world of environmental programming. The voices, the faces, the way we tell the story of our planet—it’s unlike anything else. Not even close.

Aislyn: That’s incredible. I’ve only seen the first episode and I’m already eager to watch more. Is there anything else you’d like to share about the show, your work, or just life in general?

Sanjayan: One thing I’d add is that the last year has been truly remarkable. It feels as though politicians and businesses have called our bluff. We now have a global agreement on climate change, a historic High Seas Treaty, and a commitment to protect and restore 30% of the world’s land and oceans for biodiversity. It’s a huge step forward.

That was COP 15 in Montreal, held last December. Can you believe how incredible that is? To get nations, some of which don’t even have diplomatic ties, to come together and agree on something? We’re talking about 194 countries. Nearly every nation on Earth signed on.

It’s astonishing. What it shows is that even in a time of intense political division, the one thing that still brings people together is the understanding that nature is crucial to our survival and must be protected. There may be debates on the approach, but the fact that we’ve all agreed on the need to protect it is truly remarkable.

Now, the challenge before us in conservation, in filmmaking, and in your field, is to come up with solutions that can meet this challenge. The leaders have already agreed—‘Yes, we need to protect 30% of the planet.’ Now, the big question is: ‘How do we do it?’ And that’s where the real work begins. The key will be taking great ideas from all over the world and scaling them up.

Aislyn: I’m excited to see how it all unfolds on Changing Planet. Thank you so much for joining me today, Sanjayan, and for sharing your insights.

Sanjayan: It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Aislyn: That was M. Sanjayan. How can you listen to him and not feel inspired to make a difference in the world? Or at the very least, dive into his show. We'll provide links to both season one and season two in the show notes, along with a link to Conservation International's website.

Before we close out, I’d like to introduce a new segment called ‘How do you say that?’ In this segment, we’ll explore words and phrases that travelers might find useful on the road. Today, we’re going to learn some useful Swahili expressions with Dinogo’s editorial director, Sarika Bansal.

Aislyn: Hi, Sarika! Welcome back to Unpacked.

Sarika: Mambo, Aislyn! Habariako?

Aislyn: Ah, I see we’re starting off with some greetings today! But before we dive in, I’m curious—how fluent are you in Swahili now? You've been living in Nairobi for a while, haven’t you?

Sarika: Yeah. So, I’d say ‘naongea kiswahili kidogo,’ which means I speak a little bit of Swahili. I’m actually taking lessons right now.

Aislyn: That's amazing! So, what do you have in store for us today? What are we going to learn?

Sarika: I thought we could start with some basic greetings. To greet someone formally in Swahili, you’d say ‘jambo,’ which means ‘hello.’ But in Nairobi, where I live, that’s more of a greeting foreigners use. To Kenyans, it sounds a bit old-fashioned, kind of like when someone says ‘howdy’ or ‘How do you do?’—that vibe.

A better greeting that I’ve picked up is ‘mambo,’ which is more casual. Then you’d ask, ‘mambo, habariako?’ where ‘habariako’ means ‘how are you?’ To respond, you can say ‘nzuri sana,’ which means ‘very good.’ If you want to keep it even more relaxed, you can say ‘sasa’ and respond with ‘poa,’ which just means ‘cool.’

Aislyn: So, when would you use ‘mambo’ instead of ‘sasa’? Is ‘sasa’ more for friends or—?

Sarika: Yeah, exactly. You wouldn’t use ‘sasa’ in a more formal setting, like at work or with people older than you. In those situations, you’d stick with ‘mambo.’

Aislyn: Got it. So, do you have any tips for pronunciation? Would you mind guiding me through how to pronounce these phrases?

Sarika: Swahili is actually pretty easy to pick up. It’s completely phonetic, unlike English, so the way a word is written is exactly how it’s pronounced. We can practice together if you’d like.

Aislyn: Sounds great! And just to let our listeners know, we’ll be including the written versions of these phrases in the episode description, so you can follow along and practice too. OK, the first one—‘mambo habariako?’

Sarika: Perfect! That’s spot on. Now, if someone asks you that, you’d reply with ‘nzuri,’ which has a slight nasal ‘n’ sound before the ‘zuri.’ So it’s ‘nzuri.’

Aislyn: ‘Nzuri. Nzuri.’ Is that ‘r’ like the rolled ‘r’ you hear in Spanish?

Sarika: It’s not exactly the Spanish ‘rr,’ but it’s also not the softer American ‘r.’ It’s somewhere in the middle—slightly stronger, but not quite rolled.

Aislyn: Got it. ‘Nzuri.’

Sarika: Exactly! That means ‘very good.’

Aislyn: Great. And what about ‘sasa’?

Sarika: ‘Sasa.’ That’s right! It’s a bit simpler.

Aislyn: Yeah, definitely simpler.

Sarika: And in response, I’d say ‘poa.’

Aislyn: Can these greetings be used in other African countries where Swahili is spoken, or are they specific to Kenya?

Sarika: Swahili is fascinating. It started as a language for traders, so it’s now spoken across much of East Africa and even beyond. Its roots are Bantu, which is the foundation of many languages in Eastern and Southern Africa. Swahili also incorporates elements of Arabic, Persian, Portuguese, and Hindi.

Around 200 million people today speak Swahili, either as their first language or as a lingua franca. To answer your question about greetings—if you want to experience the most authentic form of Swahili, Tanzania is the place to go. There, you'll hear ‘jambo’ more frequently as a greeting. In fact, there are even more formal greetings, especially when addressing elders.

Aislyn: That’s so interesting! Or should I say, ‘poa’?

Sarika: [Laughs] Exactly.

Aislyn: How often do you speak Swahili on a daily basis?

Sarika: In Kenya, the two official languages are Swahili and English. Since the British colonized the country, most people I interact with speak some English, which is why I haven’t become fully fluent in Swahili yet. It’s just easier to use English in everyday conversations.

Even learning just a bit of the language feels like having a superpower when I interact with people. It’s also incredibly rewarding to speak to someone in their native language, rather than in one they’ve learned in school. I think it’s a wonderful way to show respect.

Aislyn: That’s beautiful. We’ll definitely have to bring you back to teach us more as your Swahili improves.

Sarika: I would love that!

Aislyn: Thanks so much for joining us today. We can’t wait for the next time.

Sarika: Thank you. Or as we say in Swahili, ‘asante sana.’

Aislyn: Hope you're now excited for your next trip to Kenya. We’ll include the words we discussed in the show notes for you.

Hungry for more insights? Visit Dinogo.com, and don’t forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter at @Dinogomedia. If you enjoyed today's journey, we'd love for you to return for more inspiring stories. Subscribing makes it easy! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast platform of your choice. Also, remember to rate and review the show – it helps others find us. This season, we want to hear from you: Is there a travel issue or trend you'd like us to cover? Share your thoughts at Dinogo.com/feedback or email us at [email protected].

This has been Unpacked, brought to you by Dinogo Media. Produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music by Chris Colin.

And don’t forget: The world is complex, but we're here to help you make sense of it.