S2, E32: The Increasing Importance of Maps

While you might rely on Google Maps daily, have you ever considered the intricate process behind its creation—and, crucially, who created it? This week on Unpacked, we explore this topic. You'll never view a map the same way again.

Transcript

Aislyn Greene, host: I’m Aislyn Greene, and welcome to Unpacked, the podcast that delves into a complex travel topic each week. This week, we're focusing on maps—not just the basic features we encounter daily when using Google Maps. We'll explore the creation and purpose of maps, examining their potential for significant change, including promoting racial equity and deepening our understanding of the world.

This week, our expert guide is Billie Cohen, the executive editor at Dinogo. Billie contributes to both the magazine and Dinogo.com, united by her profound and (self-admitted) passionate enthusiasm for maps.

Aislyn: Welcome to Unpacked, Billie.

Billie Cohen, executive editor: Thank you! It’s a pleasure to be here, stepping away from my usual duties.

Aislyn: You're immersed in all things audio. It seems like you're on audio island.

Billie: It truly is a fantastic place to be. The climate is delightful.

Aislyn: Today, you're going to share insights about maps. I'm curious—what inspired you to choose maps as your topic among all the possibilities out there?

Billie: I have a passion for maps. I’m totally a map enthusiast! They inspired my love for travel when I was a kid. I believe there are many other map lovers out there, too. Since maps are such a vital part of the travel experience, I wanted to explore them further and understand their connection to our travel perspectives.

Aislyn: What’s your first memory of a map?

Billie: I can’t believe I’m admitting this, but my earliest memory of a map comes from the Lord of the Rings series—or more specifically, The Hobbit. I borrowed those books from the library frequently. They featured stunningly detailed maps that, although fictional, ignited my sense of adventure.

They really called to me, encouraging me to step outside and explore. I was about 10 years old, and it left a lasting impression. My mom also contributed by drawing maps for me to navigate to my friends’ houses in our neighborhood. I vividly recall sitting in a pizza place on 8th Street and Broadway in Manhattan, where she flipped over the paper placemat and sketched a map of Manhattan, illustrating how the avenues and streets worked. It felt empowering—realizing that maps are not just artistic depictions of fictional landscapes, but practical tools that help you become self-reliant and explore the world independently. That realization was truly exciting.

Aislyn: That’s wonderful. Now, looking at the present, how do you utilize maps these days?

Billie: The great thing is that we all carry maps with us all the time now. Our phones are equipped with maps, and nearly everything we do involves some aspect of geography—whether we're using a rideshare app, tracking a package, or checking on food delivery.

This happens daily. Personally, as a map enthusiast and someone who writes about travel, I find myself checking Google Maps at least a dozen times a day to locate places. Even if I know how to get to a restaurant to meet friends for dinner, I still check the route on Google Maps to see if there are any spots I might want to stop at along the way. I maintain Google Maps lists of everything—I have a cookie map,

Aislyn: Oh, that’s impressive.

Billie: —and an ice cream map, covering treats from all over the globe because I have a serious sweet tooth. When I travel, I drop pins at locations, which creates a shareable list and map for friends who may visit those places.

This is a clear advantage over traditional paper maps, as sharing is much easier. I also use maps to dream about future destinations. You can zoom in and explore a location, even using a 360 view, making it an interactive experience that showcases what a place is really like. I find this even more thrilling than the Lord of the Rings maps, no offense to Tolkien.

Aislyn: Oh my goodness! How could you?!

Billie: But it’s fantastic! I really do rely on them. In fact, I’m currently planning a trip to Santa Fe with some friends. Last night, we spent quite a bit of time exploring Google Maps to decide where we want to go.

Aislyn: That’s such a clever approach, especially for a travel editor. I can already foresee requests for your cookie trail map! So, why do you believe maps are still significant today? What value do they hold in our current landscape?

Billie: Absolutely, maps have become even more essential in today's world. Of course, everyone needs a cookie trail map! Beyond that, they are deeply woven into how we receive and process information. For instance, during COVID, we relied on maps daily to track the spread of the virus. We're increasingly using maps to understand news, real estate trends, and more. They remain highly relevant in our lives today.

Aislyn: Great! Let’s dive into your episode now.

Track: Music break

Billie: My journey began, if you’ll allow the pun, by exploring maps that clarify concepts. For this, I reached out to Evan Applegate, an editorial cartographer. He specializes in crafting maps that elucidate for media like National Geographic and New York Magazine, as well as major corporations. For instance, he has created maps detailing the history and distribution of oil spills, and the habitats of wolves along the British Columbia coast. Additionally, he views mapmaking as an art form. He produces what he calls Radiant Maps—large, illuminated, backlit 3-D installations measuring 4 feet by 6 feet. They’re stunning, blending the detail of traditional maps with a magical glow.

Evan also hosts a podcast named Very Expensive Maps (since, as he notes, great maps require significant time investment). Each episode features a different cartographer. The intriguing aspect of the show is his discovery of cartographers who resemble sculptors or artists—an unexpected twist when one thinks of a ‘mapmaker.’ The discussions cover the craft behind mapmaking, its potential impact, how to create your own maps, and the emotional resonance of maps.

Evan hadn’t always contemplated these ideas. He began his career as a graphics editor at a magazine. However, everything shifted when his boss once asked him to create a map.

Evan Applegate: So, I produced a map, and it turned out terrible. It was about the size of a playing card, merely showing a dot on a country with a label. The following week, I crafted another map, and after making 50 dreadful maps, I realized, “These are improving. I genuinely enjoy mapmaking.”

Billie: How did you relate to maps before? Did they play any significant role in your life?

Evan: I was just an enthusiast. As a kid, I owned a large, floppy National Geographic atlas that I enjoyed flipping through. I never imagined I could create maps myself; I was just fascinated by looking at them. My relationship was similar to anyone else's: using Google Maps for driving or holding a paper map while traveling. But once I began working at the magazine, I realized that people actually needed maps for journalism, which sparked my interest.

Billie: That’s useful for news, but what do you see as the main purpose of a map?

Evan: Primarily, maps help you position yourself within a space because they are weak representations of reality. For example, I could have a map of your neighborhood and still overlook much of it. I often say there’s more detail beneath your feet than could ever be depicted on a map.

Maps take something vast and distill it into a familiar format. In my experience, people can easily identify a map and find their place on it. That’s the enjoyable aspect; individuals love to point to a map and say, “Oh, I like this spot. I’ve been here. My parents live here.”

Billie: I heard on one of your podcasts that you shared a story about someone engaging with one of your maps in a meaningful way. Does that happen frequently?

Evan: Absolutely. My father often says that all maps are inherently local. I might show people maps I’ve created of distant locations like the Tonga National Forest in Alaska or Los Angeles, but they’re not interested. They prefer to see the quarry where they played as kids or the spot where they got married. Maps are deeply personal, yet they aim to convey so much more. It’s an amusing contrast.

Billie: What do you think accounts for that?

Evan: Well, the best way to comprehend something as vast as a landscape is to start with your own experiences and memories. It’s about connecting what’s in your mind with what you see.

The most engaging maps people enjoy exploring strive to incorporate elements that resonate with their memories. Those moments when individuals point to a map and say, “Oh, I did something here” or “I’ve been here” come from detailed maps rather than abstract representations.

The more intricate and realistic a map attempts to be, the easier it is for people to discover their own personal narratives within it.

Billie: So, maps serve as both a collection of our memories and a way to inspire new ones?

Evan: Exactly! They can spark new memories by prompting thoughts like, “I need to check that out. That looks amazing. I love how this is represented in 2D. Perhaps I should experience it in person.”

Some maps evoke that feeling for me. For instance, Mike Hall, a British cartographer living in Spain, creates illustrated maps of the country. He depicts stunning facades that I recognize, and when I see his maps, I feel compelled to visit. Although I’ve never been to Toledo, his representation makes me think, “I want to create a memory there.”

Billie: It seems that cartographers wield significant influence, right? They shape our imagination and our perception of what a place is like or what exists there. That’s quite a responsibility.

Evan: Absolutely! People place an extraordinary amount of implicit trust in maps. During my time as a graphics editor, I noticed a stark difference. Show an editor a paragraph, and they can dissect it: “I don’t like this quote. Find another one. Where did you get this source? This seems like a stretch.”

When you present them with a chart, their ability to question it is limited since they don’t analyze Excel all day, but they’ll still ask, “What’s your source? I’m not a fan of the X axis.” However, with maps, people tend to accept them outright. No one feels equipped to question, “What’s this doing here?” They might notice something missing, but not something included. If you leave off a detail they care about, they’ll react, but if you include everything, their questioning stops there.

Billie: So, should we trust maps?

Evan: I rely on Google Maps for navigation. I trust it because they invest a billion dollars annually to keep it updated, and it’s a remarkable technical achievement, with thousands of people verifying information. Still, Google Maps often prioritizes finding the nearest Starbucks over your actual street. Even the most reliable maps have something they’re promoting, so it’s wise to approach them with skepticism.

MUSIC BREAK?

Billie: This leads me to consider another aspect of maps' power: While they can indicate the location of places, they also possess the ability to instigate change in those areas. Maps can inform individuals, corporations, and governments about where resources are required. Since people often make these decisions, the data they choose to highlight can significantly impact the narrative a map conveys—whether positively or negatively.

To delve deeper into this topic, I reached out to Clinton Johnson. Clinton is a digital cartographer, also known as a geospatial architect, at a mapping software firm called Esri. You may not recognize the name Esri, but you’ve certainly engaged with its products. Esri develops Geographic Information System (GIS) software utilized by numerous entities, including corporations, municipalities, countries, and nonprofits—such as FedEx, Amazon, and the U.S. Census Bureau. Clinton's role is to assist individuals within these organizations in making informed choices and harnessing geographic data for positive outcomes.

Clinton Johnson: For decades, cities and counties have sought to address historical injustices, working to promote racial equity. They've been reaching out for support from any organization that can provide tools and services to help identify where problems and inequities lie and how they can take action to resolve them.

Billie: Clinton is at the forefront of guiding these efforts. In 2020, Esri appointed him as their inaugural Racial Equity & Social Justice Lead. He also established a nonprofit called NorthStar of GIS, which leverages geography to foster equity within the realms of geography and STEM.

Due to his accomplishments, National Geographic recognized him, naming him one of the 2023 National Geographic Explorers—a distinguished group of leaders and innovators committed to making a positive impact across various fields. Interestingly, his journey began with a city job he took after high school, which he was initially indifferent to because his true passion lay in electrical engineering. Yet, that job ultimately redirected his life's course forever.

Clinton: My first job in the geo field was with the city of Philadelphia, where I handled the creation and issuance of permits for public right-of-way usage. Behind me were numerous maps.

Billie: The maps depicted the surface of the streets and everything beneath them. However, Clinton noticed that no one was actively working on those maps. Instead, he discovered another floor in the office where a growing team of digital cartographers was diligently working on something called Geographic Information Systems, or GIS.

Clinton: Once I connected with that team, I became really enthusiastic about how the combination of geography, data, and technology could revolutionize how we, as a city, considered resource allocation and understood the needs of various neighborhoods.

Billie: While this was an exciting development, another incident occurred for Clinton on his first day in that role.

Clinton: Right next to me, there was an individual using racial slurs and speaking very disparagingly about black residents in certain neighborhoods. Later, I learned that this person was involved in creating some of the maps, including those that determined the allocation of a resource many of us take for granted.

Billie: That resource was paving. Years later, Clinton found himself on a tour of Philadelphia’s neighborhoods with the mayor and his team. They arrived at a street featuring a massive hole in the pavement.

Clinton: I can't even describe this hole—it's enormous. A kid was playing in it, engaged in a game of hide-and-seek. The man guiding us through the neighborhood remarked, “That child is part of the third or fourth generation of families who have played hide-and-seek in this very hole.”

Billie: Standing there, Clinton couldn't comprehend this situation. He knew from his experience with the city that they had the budget to repave every street at least once every 10 to 20 years.

Clinton: Then I recalled that guy and considered how many people wield significant decision-making power through maps. It struck me that, in the past, race was often used to hinder progress and resource allocation in certain neighborhoods—but we could approach this differently now.

Billie: Clinton recognized that GIS was the crucial tool. It could be harnessed to gather and showcase information that would highlight inequalities, like that hole, much more visibly and much more rapidly.

Clinton: We have the opportunity to use maps more equitably, creating diverse experiences for individuals, communities, and neighborhoods. This mindset has been a backdrop for much of my career.

Billie: At Esri, Clinton focuses on empowering cities, organizations, and federal agencies to leverage GIS technology for meaningful change—addressing systemic racism, in fact. He explains that maps can either be racially just or unjust, depending on their creation and the creators behind them. History supports this distinction.

Clinton: Some may be familiar with the Homeowners Loan Corporation from the 1930s, which produced maps that influenced decisions well into the 1970s and 1980s. Many might also recognize Jim Crow segregation across the South, parts of the West, and the North in the U.S.

Similarly, some may understand apartheid in South Africa, where communities were divided and people classified by race were assigned to specific areas, restricting their movement in others. These scenarios illustrate how governments, communities, commercial real estate, and financial institutions worked to limit progress and deliver better services to certain communities while neglecting others.

Billie: Geography is fundamentally tied to all these issues. Clinton points out that if you trace back to the late 1800s, you'll see how colonial powers divided the continent we now refer to as Africa, crafting new maps for their own interests and benefits.

Clinton: Throughout history, geography has often been employed in racially unjust manners, leading to persistent segregation within communities and policies that distribute resources based on location.

Billie: He notes that digital geography played a crucial role in tracking the spread of Covid, helping to determine where clinics should be established and where vaccines needed to be distributed.

Clinton: Geography is key in the allocation of resources, allowing us to use it as a tool to analyze how communities face disparities and differences in outcomes, as well as the varying burdens or benefits they encounter. This understanding enables us to allocate resources more equitably.

Billie: Clinton provided an illustrative example.

Clinton: If we discover that historically marginalized Black and Latin American communities in a city are subjected to schools that deliberately underperform in educating their students, then organizations offering after-school STEM programs can pinpoint where to best direct their resources to meet the needs of these families. By utilizing maps, they can identify where to expand their services or how to reallocate them effectively using digital geography.

Billie: I grasped how GIS tools could enhance civic engagement, but I asked Clinton how he envisions their impact on everyday individuals—like those using Google Maps or Uber in their daily lives or while traveling.

Clinton: There’s a frequent question that circulates online, starting with, “Black in ...” It could be “Black in Japan, Black in Nebraska, Black in London.” For those of us without the Green Book, we navigate our own experiences by seeking others’ insights online, yet reviews often fall short. You can't filter for specifics like, “I’m a Black trans woman. What was it like for other Black trans women or Black women in this space?”

Billie: This is the territory Clinton wants to delve into: integrating personal experiences into the mapping process.

Clinton: Maps have evolved beyond simple paper tools; they now include 2D, 3D, and immersive XR and VR experiences. The challenge is how to incorporate lived experiences, emotions, and feelings into maps. I want to encourage people to consider that while some navigate spaces with maps one way, others experience the same maps differently and often seek more context and information. My goal is to enhance the interactive mapping experience with these insights.

Billie: Clinton is actively pursuing these concepts through independent projects, and he shared a glimpse of his aspirations with us.

Clinton: One of the experiments I want to dive into right away is exploring how word clouds can be represented on a map. Instead of merely relying on a five-star rating, I’m curious about what people are actually saying. What if we could visualize emotions? Imagine if we illuminated a map based on how people felt in different spaces; it could reveal entirely new insights beyond just the name or type of restaurant.

What if we combined all these elements at once? What if we created a 3D environment or utilized augmented reality? Picture walking down a street and being able to see people's sentiments and comments about the surroundings.

Billie: Clinton also plans to embark on another independent project by traveling.

Clinton: In the coming years, I aim to take underground railroad tours, gathering stories from individuals about their experiences on those journeys. I want to hear about their migrations—whether as individuals, families, or communities—and understand their feelings as they navigate those spaces.

Billie: He envisions a future where all GIS tools integrate this kind of multidimensional data. That way, whenever we look up a destination, a map can provide us with much more than just directions.

Clinton: I envision a day when platforms like Expedia or Google Travel can provide insights tailored to different experiences. If I’m a woman, a Black individual, or of Asian descent, I might want to know where I’ll feel safest or discover cultural resources that resonate with me. The goal is to make navigating the world much easier for everyone.

MUSIC BREAK?

Billie: Cymone Davis and Dr. Atyia Martin share this vision. They are the co-creators of an innovative online interactive map known as the Black Towns & Settlements Project. This map highlights the locations of historically Black towns across the U.S. and Canada, including places like Blackdom, New Mexico, and the Parting Ways enclave in Plymouth, Massachusetts. By clicking on each pin, users can access notes, histories, and photos of the real people who lived there. Their mission is to honor an essential chapter of North American history while encouraging people to engage with these locations.

Beyond being an impressive map, the backstory is equally inspiring. Cymone and Dr. Martin are not professional cartographers.

In fact, their backgrounds lie in public service and education, which creates a unique synergy for mapmaking. Cymone previously served as the town manager of Tullahassee, Oklahoma—the oldest historically Black town in the state. She is also pursuing a doctorate at the University of Southern California, and once she graduates, she aims to establish an all-Black boarding school.

Dr. Martin has held various roles in both government and academia, including serving as the chief resilience officer for Boston and directing the Office of Public Health Preparedness at the Boston Public Health Commission. She has also been an adjunct faculty member at Northeastern University, teaching in their Homeland Security and Public Policy programs, while managing a DEI consulting firm.

I know—it’s quite impressive!

The point I’m making with all these accomplishments is that these women are incredibly busy and already driving significant positive change. Yet, for some reason, they felt compelled to create a map. Why is that?

The inspiration for this project stemmed from Dr. Martin’s work as the executive director of a nonprofit called Next Development Leadership, where Cymone participated as a fellow in one of their programs.

As the town manager of Tullahassee, Cymone realized that Oklahoma boasts more historically Black towns than any other state. This sparked a conversation between her and Dr. Martin. Cymone explains how the idea evolved.

Cymone Davis: Ultimately, the U.S. Black Towns & Settlement mapping tool was conceived by Dr. Martin and myself, aiming to create a central hub for understanding the significance of Black townships and settlements in the U.S., their historical importance, and contemporary preservation efforts as well as ways to revitalize them.

Billie: Cymone clarifies that a Black township is defined by Black governance, meaning it is predominantly or entirely Black and has its own Black government. The first documented Black town was established in 1793 in what is now Florida, then a Spanish colony. Historians estimate there have been up to 1,200 Black towns across the U.S., with nearly 30 still active today; fourteen of these are located in Oklahoma.

Cymone: Many people are unaware of the existence of these towns, and even more are unfamiliar with their historical significance and the challenges of maintaining a Black township in 2023. There is a rich history surrounding Black townships that remains largely undiscovered, and through this mapping tool, we aim to spark curiosity about what defines a Black town and how to visit one.

Cymone and Dr. Martin unveiled their Black Towns & Settlements Project in February 2022 at nextleads.org/blacktowns. They have identified 81 towns on the map so far, complete with narratives, photographs, and links for further exploration of their histories. This project is ongoing because historians have yet to pinpoint the exact locations of all the towns. Given all this information, I asked Dr. Martin—why choose a map as a medium?

Dr. Atyia Martin: I’ll gladly take responsibility for selecting a map as our medium. I am proudly and lovingly a nerd.

Billie: Welcome to the community!

Dr. Martin: Thank you! Go nerds! I've accumulated a wealth of experience with geographic information systems, or GIS, over the years. I've been working with ArcGIS since the 1990s.

Billie: As a reminder, GIS is the terminology used for digitally representing geography. ArcGIS is one of the mapping software products developed by Esri, where Clinton Johnson is employed—a connection I discovered during our interview. Dr. Martin has extensively utilized geographic data throughout her public health career, particularly in preparing for emergencies and recovery efforts.

Dr. Martin: For me, once we hit upon the idea of pinpointing these towns, it became clear: these are geographic areas, and there are numerous ones. As we validated the list of potential Black towns, being able to visually represent their locations on a map added a level of reality. Seeing them spread out across the United States without needing any words conveys the geographic diversity of Black towns.

Billie: The duo aims to shine a light on Black towns because, as Dr. Martin points out, that history is frequently overlooked.

Dr. Martin: In our education, we received a sort of condensed version of history, and even that was a skewed summary, lacking the depth, breadth, and nuances of our national narrative. Within that flawed summary, we only get a fragmented view of Black contributions to the broader story of American history.

Black towns represent a remarkable collection of historical moments that exemplify both the resilience and strength of Black Americans, while also highlighting the challenges and realities of racism and its impact on Black communities, particularly in relation to these towns.

Billie: Dr. Martin and Cymone emphasized the importance of storytelling. They shared tales of Black towns established before America became a nation, as well as during the American Revolution, including stories of Black individuals who fought in that revolution and later founded Black towns. I asked them what narrative their map conveys. Dr. Martin responded ...

Dr. Martin: At a fundamental level, looking at the map reveals that throughout American history, there have always been Black individuals and allies who recognized the significance of creating spaces for Black people—places where they can truly be themselves, embrace their culture, or engage with diverse Black cultures.

There’s a profound beauty in the overarching narrative of people taking meaningful action with the resources available to them. For the Black towns that continue to thrive, their ability to endure through numerous historical and contemporary challenges is remarkable.

Billie: Their map has a broader significance as well. The two women aim to encourage people to support the townships that still thrive.

Dr. Martin: There are organizations comprised of descendants from these towns or individuals who have a deep emotional connection to the history of these areas. They have taken it upon themselves to work on revitalizing these communities and preserving their stories.

Moreover, we can contribute to these towns by donating and becoming part of a narrative that we can share in the future, reflecting on where we were when today becomes history.

Billie: As I navigated their map, I realized how it could help users forge connections between places and the real people behind them. It made me reflect on how maps in general shape our perceptions of locations and their inhabitants. Maps can even affect our travel decisions and the reasons behind them. I brought this up, and Cymone focused on how a well-crafted map achieves this—and how their map specifically does just that.

Cymone: There are Black townships located right off Route 66, and with this anniversary celebration of, "Let’s embark on a road trip from Chicago to Santa Monica, yay!" I ask, how many of you will make a stop at a Black township along the way? If you know they exist, they can be a part of your travel experience.

Billie: She mentioned that maps serve as a gateway to exploring our surroundings. By opening your GPS or the Black Towns map, you can see your vacation route and easily incorporate a stop at a new and intriguing location. Dr. Martin finds a certain magic in this.

Dr. Martin: One of the wonders of maps lies in their ability to make the world feel more accessible, connecting us to distant places that seem close when viewed on a map. In the context of Black history as part of American history, I believe maps can reshape our understanding of narratives about Black individuals, their residences, and their capabilities. Too often, when people think of Black communities, they envision urban or inner-city settings, accompanied by various stereotypes and assumptions.

Billie: As Dr. Martin points out, there’s a prevailing notion that Black Americans predominantly inhabit urban areas. However, the reality is different: According to Pew Research Center analysis of government data, in 2021, there were 47.2 million Black individuals in the U.S., with 40 percent residing in suburbs and nearly 20 percent in rural areas.

Dr. Martin: There are towns in Mississippi, for example, that are mainly Black and consist of populations of 1,000, 2,000, or even 3,000 people. While they may not be historic Black towns, they are predominantly Black, and recognizing this diversity through the spatial aspect of maps offers a different perspective than what we typically encounter.

Billie: After speaking with everyone for this episode, I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. Martin. Maps truly allow us to view various subjects and locations differently than we usually do. They can elucidate, transform, and even revive. However, what resonates most with me from our discussions is that the best maps—the ones we find captivating and enjoy examining—achieve all of this simultaneously. Here’s Clinton once more.

Clinton: When we say a picture can convey a thousand words, maps are even more dynamic. They often serve as one of the best reflections of our real-world experiences, going beyond a single narrative captured in a movie. Maps can tell multiple stories at once and are uniquely designed to convey these stories in a way that resonates with everyone.

Aislyn: I’m really excited to see where Clinton's journey leads him next. You can follow him on X at @ClintonGJohnson, and we’ll include a link to his National Geographic Explorer profile along with other useful resources in our show notes.

To explore the map created by Dr. Martin and Cymone, head to nextleads.org/blacktowns. For more about Dr. Martin, visit her website at atyiamartin.com, and follow Cymone on Instagram at @onlyonecymone.

Lastly, to hear more from Evan Applegate, check out his podcast Very Expensive Maps wherever you listen to podcasts, and take a look at the stunning maps featured on his website, evanapplegate.com.

Ready for more exploration? Visit Dinogo.com and don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter. The magazine handle is @Dinogomedia. If you enjoyed today’s journey, I hope you’ll return for more engaging stories. Subscribing makes it effortless! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform. Please rate and review the show to help fellow travelers discover it. We also want your input: Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you’d like us to discuss? Reach out at Dinogo.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@Dinogo.com.

You've been listening to Unpacked, a creation of Dinogo Media. This podcast is brought to life by producers Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland, with music composed by Chris Colin.

And don’t forget: The world is complex. We're here to help you navigate through it.