S3, E21: The Unplanned (Travel!) Journey of Dinogo's Origin

In this episode of Unpacked, host Aislyn Greene engages in a conversation with Dinogo's co-founders and close friends, Greg Sullivan and Joe Diaz. They share the unexpected travel tales that inspired Dinogo—from a five-week adventure in India without any plans or luggage, to a journey that linked an Egyptian surgeon-turned-satirist to The Daily Show. In this cheerful discussion, they explore the values that distinguish Dinogo, reflect on the changes in the travel industry over the past 15 years, and outline their vision for promoting travel as a positive force.

Transcript

I’m Aislyn Greene, and welcome to Unpacked, the podcast where we delve into a challenging travel topic each week. This week, we’re focusing on Dinogo’s 15th anniversary. In August 2009, we launched the very first edition of Dinogo, which began as a magazine and has since evolved into a vibrant website, travel guides, videos, this podcast, and much more.

I have been part of the company for a decade, and I cherish that Dinogo has always been grounded in the essence of experiential travel. It all began with founders and longtime friends Greg Sullivan and Joe Diaz, who envisioned a travel media company for those who cherish local culture and the realities of travel, truly living out those values during their five-week journey across India.

You’ll hear their journey directly from Greg and Joe as they discuss their initial aspirations for the company, the hurdles they faced, and the unexpected moments that arose throughout. They also reveal some of their, let’s say, unique perspectives on traveling together, which they’ve done extensively. Greg prefers the aisle seat, while Joe is firmly rooted in the window seat and refuses to close that shade. Their friendship, along with their dedication to using travel as a positive force in the world, is truly remarkable and contagious. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Aislyn: Greg and Joe, it’s a pleasure to have you on Unpacked. Welcome!

Greg: Great to be here. It’s a bit of a thrill to be in this position with you.

Aislyn: Absolutely.

Joe: You finally brought us on board. You finally brought us on board.

Greg: Five years.

Aislyn: Indeed, five years. Next year, each of you needs to share a travel story. Now that you're part of this universe, you’re committed.

Greg: That’s going to be quite a challenge.

Aislyn: But today, we’re here to celebrate Dinogo’s 15-year anniversary—and every time I think about it, I’m just a little astonished.

I’d love to go back to the very beginning because your origin story for Dinogo is truly remarkable. Could you share that with us?

Greg: Alright, we’ll give it a shot. So, back in January 2007, Joe and I had a plan to visit India, and Nepal was also on our agenda—we even secured visas for it. All we arranged was a flight into Delhi and a departure from Mumbai five weeks later. We had a reservation for our first night at the Imperial Hotel, right, Joe? Beyond that, we had no concrete plans. The previous year, we had taken a similar trip to South America that went wonderfully, so we thought, why not try it in India? It turned out to be an incredible journey. Without a fixed itinerary, we just aimed to discover things, meet people, and see where the journey led us—from our first rickshaw driver taking us to his home to meet his mother, that’s how we approached the entire trip.

I believe our first stop was Agra, then we headed north to Haridwar and Rishikesh. There, Joe met a swami at the Anandá hotel who insisted we visit his guru at his school in Pune. We followed his advice and spent a few weekdays there at the school.

It was truly a spontaneous and immersive trip that pushed us out of our comfort zones and completely transformed us. By the end, we arrived in Goa, where we finally relaxed, enjoying Kingfisher beers and perhaps indulging in something illegal. Reflecting on the journey, we thought, wow, this was such an amazing experience, and more people should travel this way. Maybe we could inspire others to do the same. We even brainstormed some taglines. What was one of them?

Joe: Explore the world.

Greg: Look beyond travel or dive within.

Joe: It was "Beyond travel. Explore the world. Look within."

Greg: Ah.

Aislyn: These are really great, you two. Did you realize back then that you wanted to create a magazine, or were you just thinking about inspiring people in some way?

Greg: Well.

Joe: You know how it goes. You're lounging on a beach, sipping beers, and maybe enjoying some ganja, and you think you’ve stumbled upon the greatest idea ever. Then the next morning, you usually wake up and think, "Oh no, that was the silliest idea we could’ve had." But when we got up the following day, we thought, eh, it’s not such a bad idea after all. Let’s explore this further.

So, that’s what we did: we returned to the States.

Greg: Oh, Joe, you have to share this part first. I completely forgot about it. They lost our luggage. We didn’t have any luggage for the entire five weeks we were in India, so we had to get Indian clothes made and...

Aislyn: I didn’t know that!

Joe: Yeah, the tailoring was incredible. I wish I still had those shorts. When we finally returned to the States, after five weeks of being told our luggage was lost, it turned out it was just sitting on the steps at Greg’s house, which was pretty amusing. So what do you do after coming up with a fantastic idea but knowing nothing about the business you want to enter? You go to amazon.com and buy books on how to start a magazine. That’s exactly what we did. We ordered about three or four books, three of which were written by editors, and one by an accountant. Greg and I figured we should probably read the accountant's book first to really turn this into a business.

His book was specifically about how to launch a magazine, and he had even helped start magazines in the industry, including Playboy with Hugh Hefner. We went to meet him, and this guy was an old-school pro, reminiscing about his Rolodex, and that’s where it all began. Then we started making calls, assembling our team, and here we are, 15 years later.

Aislyn: Here we are! And the magazine? We're still publishing it.

Joe: Exactly. We're still at it, and it's thriving.

Greg: Thank goodness we weren’t too good at absorbing everything from that book we read. Fortunately, we found some amazing people who were skilled at creating excellent magazines, crafting fantastic content, and mastering ad sales. We’ve been incredibly lucky to connect with others who share our dream and vision.

Aislyn: I really appreciate that you both came from outside the media industry. I think that brought a unique courage and fresh inspiration that someone steeped in the media world might not have had. Before we move on, could you each briefly share what you were doing prior to this journey?

Because you led very different lives before Dinogo.

Joe: Absolutely. Greg and I have a 20-year age gap, so he’s had a chance to experience a couple more lifetimes than I have.

Greg: I’m actually the younger one here.

Joe: At least on camera, you’re looking fantastic.

Aislyn: Must be that kitchen lighting.

Joe: Yeah, it’s all thanks to the toaster.

Aislyn: Absolutely.

Joe: Right after graduating college, I joined a program called Teach for America, which places recent graduates in schools that lack resources and funding across the country.

This took me to Phoenix, Arizona, where I spent two years teaching fifth grade and another year with seventh and eighth graders. That’s actually where I met Greg, who volunteered in my classroom during my final year of teaching. His company supported our school by providing volunteers and funding for after-school sports programs.

As we got to know each other, I mentioned that I was planning to leave teaching to focus on what I had been developing for the past couple of years. He asked me what it was, and I explained that I was purchasing investment properties in Phoenix, renovating homes, and then either selling or renting them out.

It was quite an interesting venture. Greg offered to help if I ever needed it, and that’s how we began collaborating on the side. Eventually, those experiences led us to travel together, and from there, we launched Dinogo.

Aislyn: That’s fantastic!

Greg: As Joe aptly noted, I have an additional 20 years of experiences to share. It's a longer tale, but I'll keep it brief. I was a lawyer who ventured into several businesses, including a used-car dealership when I first crossed paths with Joe. Coincidentally, while he was leaving teaching, I was diving into academia.

I was attending classes at Arizona State, studying philosophy, and simultaneously teaching law and ethics to business students there. This was my life while we were exploring and eventually decided to embark on the journey of starting Dinogo.

Joe: But Greg also launched an arcade game manufacturing company called Super Shot. You know, the basketball game with the adjustable hoops? He was the mastermind behind that—it’s pretty legendary.

Greg: That’s all in my mind.

Aislyn: You’re quite the multifaceted businessman, Greg. Did you two click instantly in that classroom? Was there a friendship spark right from the start?

Joe: Wow, this was like over 20 years ago. Do you even recall?

Greg: Yes, definitely. But it was also a slow burn at first. I would drop by his class for an hour occasionally, but Joe had back-to-back classes, so we didn’t get much time to chat. Then one day, I...

Joe: I remember it well; you were a huge Phoenix Suns fan with season tickets or something. You picked me up to go to a game, and we had a blast—everyone was having drinks, and it was just a great time. I thought, yeah, I really like this guy.

Greg: Honestly, we became good friends, started doing a bit of business together, and then we took that trip I mentioned earlier to South America. We flew into Buenos Aires and out of Santiago five weeks later, with no real plan. By the end of that trip, he went from being a friend to my best friend. We got really close.

Joe: Wow, I’ve never heard you phrase it like that before, Greg.

Greg: Ha ha!

Joe: I thought you mentioned that in the end, it’s often, “he was a real pain,” but I guess that’s not suitable for public ears. This is a whole different take.

Greg: Yes, we’re focused on marketing.

Aislyn: We’re polishing up the narrative, yes. We can’t reveal all the behind-the-scenes moments where you guys bicker.

Joe: Just so you know, this is being recorded.

Aislyn: Right. You’ve got a soundbite there. Well, we’ll dive deeper into your travel style since you’ve journeyed so much together over the years, but I want to revisit the early days of Dinogo.

How long did it take, from that beach in Goa to the release of your first magazine issue, approximately?

Greg: About two and a half years.

Aislyn: Incredible.

Greg: Essentially, we spent the remainder of 2007 crafting our own plan, pondering our direction, and networking with various individuals while attending conferences. Around the same time, we relocated from Arizona to San Francisco, where we began connecting with like-minded individuals who shared our vision. In 2008, our editor-in-chief, Julia, along with a few others, developed our editorial plan, and by November 1st, we welcomed our first employees. Approximately 8 to 10 months later, our inaugural issue was ready.

Aislyn: Initially, Dinogo focused on experiential travel, a concept that wasn’t widely discussed back then. Now, it seems ubiquitous. How did you perceive your uniqueness? What did you offer that was absent in the travel scene at that time?

Joe: We didn’t touch on this in the India segment, but during our time there, we were struck by the remarkable people we met, invited into their homes, and immersed in their businesses. We experienced the world from their perspectives—literally stepping off the tour bus to sit at kitchen tables.

I believe we approached travel content differently. We asked ourselves how media could resonate with curious, open-minded individuals like us, who see themselves as global citizens. For those of us who seek deeper understanding through travel, there was a lack of suitable content available.

Nowadays, there are numerous tour companies and outfitters who have been doing this for a long time.

However, there wasn't really any media that resonated with us. It was all about the fantasy of travel—like, the image of a supermodel on an elephant on a deserted beach. Sure, that looks nice, or the typical list of '27 best things' to do. But there was no exploration beneath the surface; no desire to delve deeper into experiences.

So we realized there was a gap in the market. We needed to fill that void. Now, that concept has certainly become more mainstream. We can discuss our future direction later, but I believe Greg has something to add, so I’ll pause for a moment.

Greg: I've been fortunate in my business ventures and made some money. I felt that media catered to those who were lucky enough to afford travel, focusing solely on high costs. I found that quite insulting. Ironically, when we launched, some competitors labeled us as a backpacker magazine because we weren’t afraid to embrace a hands-on approach to travel. Back then, the term 'experiential travel' was almost unheard of.

Hotels would question why they should engage with travelers about experiences outside their walls. It was definitely a challenging environment to start a business in.

Aislyn: Oh, wow. That really was a different era.

Greg: It’s truly rewarding to see how, after a few years, our words started being echoed by others. That’s honestly one of the greatest compliments we could receive if we're aiming to make a difference in the world. However, as experiential travel gained popularity, we realized it often centered on personal growth and self-improvement, with the focus on 'me' quite prevalent. While I believe that traveling this way fosters empathy for others, we became more vocal about the idea that it's not solely about individual betterment. It's also crucial to consider the impact on the communities we visit and the planet itself, and that's the emphasis we've maintained over the past eight or nine years.

And I think that's incredibly significant.

Aislyn: Absolutely. The challenges in travel have evolved significantly over the past 15 years. I appreciate that there has always been a nonprofit, altruistic aspect to the company, particularly with Learning Dinogo, which I believe you started around the same time as the magazine. Can you share more about that initiative and your goals?

Joe: Sure! We actually launched it even before the magazine itself. I was a teacher, and Greg had volunteered in South Africa, working in orphanages. This connection to education was fundamental for us. Growing up, my mom worked at Marriott for 25 years, and we frequently had visitors from all over the globe, so when she said that travel is the best form of education, it resonated with me. I witnessed it firsthand as different cultures passed through our home on weekends. In my first teaching job, I had a class of 34 Hispanic students, with eight of them being monolingual Spanish speakers, and all their parents spoke only Spanish except for one. There was one girl, Alexandra, who had the chance to travel a little, like visiting the Grand Canyon or the beach a few hours away, while the rest of the kids rarely left their neighborhoods.

Many of my students didn’t have the same opportunities to explore beyond their local surroundings.

Many of my students lived in neighborhoods that were just two miles by two miles. The way Alexandra engaged with me, her questions, and her self-perception were so distinct compared to her peers. Both Greg and I felt this difference deeply; we lived it and taught in those settings.

We recognized the transformative power of travel when approached with the mindset we've discussed. Travel begins the moment you step out of your front door, and if you maintain a curious and open-minded attitude, pushing your comfort zone just a little each day, it can lead to incredible opportunities for both yourself and those around you.

This is the essence of Learning Dinogo: Let’s provide young people with experiences they wouldn’t normally have, exposing them to new places so they can return and make a difference in their own communities.

We started this initiative in 2009 and have expanded the program. Our ambitious vision is to imagine if a million high school students traveled each year, learning about a place and its challenges while also exploring their own identities. After a week of meaningful contributions, they would return enriched, sharing their insights with their communities.

If we could make this a reality each year, the conversations we would engage in and the news we would deem important would shift dramatically from the noise we currently face. This change could elevate our societal discussions, and at the core of our mission is the belief that this vision is achievable if we persist in our efforts.

Greg: One of the most fulfilling experiences we have is when students return from their journeys and share their stories. We all appreciate the impact of travel, and while we’re lucky to travel frequently, hearing someone recount their first experience is unmatched. I can’t help but get emotional every single time. Ha ha.

Aislyn: Yes, during our annual company meetings, we often have someone come in to discuss Learning Dinogo, sometimes even bringing along students or sharing their experiences. It’s a moment that brings tears to everyone’s eyes; it’s truly the highlight for many of us, I believe.

So, back in the early days, did you have a so-called 15-year plan? Did you foresee where this journey would lead?

Greg: Not at all. Ha ha ha.

Joe: No 15-year plan here. In fact, some of our early employees were making bets on how long this venture would actually last.

Greg: I believe six months was the maximum anyone was willing to wager on us.

Joe: Simpkins was sure it would only last six months. That was his entire forecast, with just a six-month runway...

Aislyn: Naturally, Simpkins.

Joe: ...after that, I’d need to find another job to support my family.

Aislyn: Everyone was pinching pennies. So, what has caught you off guard? We’re still here, despite a pandemic throwing quite a curveball. What has surprised you the most throughout the years?

Joe: There are many things, but what stands out is how deeply people believe in this concept. Experiencing this with our core team, who live and breathe it every day, is incredible. During our company meetings, which now have around 55 or 60 attendees, it’s amazing to see how everyone rallies around the idea and supports each other. It’s truly cool to witness how we’ve come together around something that started in such a different way. Another significant aspect is the kind of audience we’re attracting—values-driven individuals who believe in the transformative power of travel, seeking to grow personally and make a positive impact. They are the ones steering the future of travel, and having a relationship with such an engaged audience is immensely rewarding, far beyond what I initially thought possible.

Greg: To add to that, Joe, we have our employees, our audience, and then there’s the industry itself. I’ve been part of four or five industries, and nothing compares to the travel industry. The people here are unique. I remember when we first launched, getting anyone to spend a penny on advertising felt nearly impossible.

Joe was dedicating all his time to that.

Aislyn: Wow.

Greg: Many thought we were crazy. Despite that, everyone in the travel industry believed in our mission. They’d often say, ‘My business won’t let me do this,’ but the support was there. It just made sense for everyone involved.

Travel enthusiasts are true adventurers at heart; they are among the best travelers in the world. Their passion for travel stems from a belief in its potential to improve the world. It truly is a wonderful industry, and I can’t envision being part of another one.

Aislyn: How have you observed changes in the industry over time? And how did those changes contribute to Dinogo's success?

Greg: Well, experiential travel has certainly gained mainstream traction. It started with our message, and soon others began echoing it. Travelers began to realize that their experiences were about more than just hotels; they wanted to connect with the people and cultures of the destinations they visited. The employees recognized this shift, but it took the businesses a while to acknowledge the demand and respond accordingly.

Consequently, we became a partner they could confidently collaborate with. It's interesting; we evolved from promoting just experiential travel to advocating for a holistic approach that emphasizes personal enrichment, community benefit, and global improvement. Individuals running travel businesses are keenly aware of these necessities as they look ahead 30 years, recognizing the changes they must embrace. In a way, they’re waiting for travelers to make it financially feasible to implement these essential initiatives.

Aislyn: Absolutely. Dinogo is at the forefront, driving these conversations and staying true to our principles. We’re in the process of becoming a B Corp, which I love because it demonstrates our commitment to our values in a tangible way.

Greg: To be honest, we were a bit slow to arrive at this decision. Joe, our friend Ernie, and I are the three owners of Dinogo, and we've always operated with a mindset focused on making a positive impact. I questioned why we needed a B Corp designation to validate our efforts. We already knew we were committed to having a positive effect on the world and those we reach. However, we realized it’s essential to have that external affirmation.

We’ve submitted our application, and we’re hopeful that by this time next year, we’ll have achieved it.

Joe: Additionally, I’m excited about the community we’ll be joining as part of the B Corp. There are many organizations that have already completed this journey, and it’s clear that the work is ongoing. Engaging with a community that shares these values, especially those from different sectors, will enrich our experience. We’ll have the chance to introduce these ideas into our world and foster connections for our entire team, which is incredibly exciting.

Aislyn: Absolutely! It would be fantastic to achieve this milestone in our 15th year. That would be a wonderful way to cap off our celebration.

Joe: Fingers crossed!

Aislyn: Storytelling has always been central to Dinogo, and that’s what initially attracted me. What are some of your favorite stories we've shared and celebrated over the years?

Greg: Oh wow, that wasn’t part of your preview. Ha ha.

Aislyn: Gotcha!

Greg: No, no. I actually have one in mind. We recently selected 15 stories, and we’re planning to publish them next month, right around our anniversary. Julia, Joe, and I chose our 15 favorites.

Aislyn: Oh, that sounds like it must have been quite a task, or maybe it was surprisingly easy. Who knows?

Greg: Um, yes. I picked one of the stories. It was about Edward's journey to Lourdes. Oh my goodness.

Aislyn: Ah, yes, I remember that one.

Greg: Edward faced his own physical challenges, and sadly, we lost him after he wrote this story for us. He was a religious skeptic, and his narrative was truly incredible.

Aislyn: Yes, that’s such a powerful story. Edward Redeker Henderson, right? We’ll add links to these stories in the show notes. His tales always resonate deeply with me. Joe, what about you?

Joe: For some reason, I keep thinking about a couple of Ryan Knighton’s stories. In the magazine, we created a section called Spin the Globe. We would spin the globe, choose a destination, and not reveal to the traveler or writer where they were going until the day before their trip.

It’s all about the way we travel, embracing spontaneity as our guide. You’ll have your own experiences, and while we might edit your words, the essence of your journey is yours to discover. So, we spin the globe, and there’s a literal hole in it where we put all the countries inside.

You reach in and pull one out, and that’s your destination. For instance, Ryan Knighton ended up with Egypt. Greg and I visited Egypt a week after Hosni Mubarak stepped down—another story altogether. For those who don’t know, Ryan is visually impaired; he is blind.

Sending a blind man on an adventure alone to Egypt, a country not known for its ADA accessibility, especially in Cairo with sidewalks that start and stop unexpectedly, was quite a challenge. They called his wife to confirm it was alright, and she said he could go. He ended up having an amazing experience, but what struck me was when we asked Ryan what he does when he gets off the plane in a foreign country, having no idea what to expect.

He replied that he looks for the first elbow to grab, and he grabs it. This spirit really gives me goosebumps; it embodies trust in humanity. Stepping out your front door each day with the belief that 99.5% of people want to help rather than harm you is incredibly liberating, allowing you to live a life others may never know. This, to me, is the essence of that story. The second notable experience was when we took him on a sDinogoi, and yes, you might think, how can a blind man enjoy something so visually stimulating?

Yet, his ability to interpret everything through his unique perspective was remarkable. He focused intensely on smells and described them in such detail, which was enlightening for us.

He can pinpoint sounds, like comparing the thud of elephant feet to deflated footballs hitting the ground, which completely reshaped our perception of the sDinogoi experience. These two stories encapsulate the core values and intentions behind our storytelling for travelers.

Aislyn: Last year, Ryan shared a Travel Tale about his journey as a surfer in Hawai’i, where he learned to navigate the waves. During our interview, he mentioned that to him, a location isn't defined by its geography but by the people. It all hinges on the guide and their ability to bring the destination to life.

He emphasized that it’s not just about Kaua’i; it’s about his guide, whose name I can’t recall, but that guide embodies Kaua’i for him. I found this perspective fascinating as it encourages you to rethink your approach to travel.

Greg: I really appreciate that.

Aislyn: He has a remarkable talent for doing that.

Joe: Absolutely.

Greg: It makes me think about those who say, 'Oh, I’ve been there before.' Sure, you visited, but your experiences there were unique. That doesn’t mean it would be the same if you returned. Ha ha.

Aislyn: Exactly.

Greg: That’s why I’ve never subscribed to the idea of counting countries. What does that really mean? You might have had some experiences, but you don’t truly understand a country just because you touched down for a week and then left.

Aislyn: Yes, exactly right.

Joe: Our benchmark is simple: sure, you've visited 150 countries, but how many kitchen tables in those places have you actually sat at? If the answer is none because you were in the Emirates lounge, then sorry, that's not what we mean.

Greg: Though, I must admit, the Emirates lounge is quite nice.

Joe: It really is stunning.

Aislyn: We definitely appreciate those luxuries! But I'm curious, why do you still believe in printing a magazine in today's digital age, especially with platforms like Instagram and TikTok available for storytelling and travel showcases?

Greg: One thing that’s changed with the rise of the internet—showing my age again—is that everyone has become a content creator. And while the democratization of content is fantastic, there’s also a need for professionalism. Those who are experts, who fact-check and adhere to high standards, they bring value. When they make errors, they acknowledge them. I believe that magazines play a crucial role in maintaining these professional standards.

We're not merely sending zeros and ones into the digital void; we are sharing facts, insights, opinions, and carefully crafted designs with the world. This is our commitment to quality.

Aislyn: One of our original taglines was 'travel deeper,' and that sentiment still resonates today. While Instagram has its place, it limits what you can convey. We have the unique chance to explore topics in depth through our print stories, digital features, or podcasts.

While I’d love to discuss your personal travel experiences and habits, we can't ignore the pandemic. It was a challenging time for everyone and transformed the travel landscape. How did it affect your business, and do you believe it ultimately made you stronger?

Joe: There's no denying that it profoundly affected our business, just as it did for everyone else. It disrupted lives and families, leaving us uncertain about the future. We had to make tough decisions, including letting some long-time employees go and putting others on furlough. That was incredibly difficult, but I believe we acted early, which gave us the space to navigate through those challenges.

This experience prompted us to reflect on who we want to be post-pandemic. Emerging from this, we had the chance to reaffirm our beliefs as travelers and the values we cherish. We explored what it truly means for travel to be transformative and how we can foster an environment that encourages this idea. We've committed ourselves to the values that highlight the positive impact of traveling in this way on individuals.

As Greg pointed out, the pandemic prompted a significant shift in perspective. It made us consider how our travel affects the destinations we visit and how we can be more conscious of our environmental footprint. The goal is to ensure that our visits are beneficial for everyone involved, creating high-value experiences for travelers and hosts alike.

Aislyn: It's unfortunate that no one would choose to go through such a tragedy, but if there's a small silver lining, it's the chance to clarify our vision on how we can positively impact the world. That's truly significant.

Greg: Many travelers likely felt this change firsthand and are now more open to this message than ever. As urban dwellers, we often escape the city in search of fresh air, venturing into communities that may not necessarily want more visitors. This awareness prompts us to consider our impact, ensuring we aren't seen as unwelcome intruders in their neighborhoods.

People are now contemplating how to travel during off-peak seasons, avoiding overcrowded hotspots. They want to move beyond simply snapping a selfie and leaving, instead focusing on supporting local businesses and being welcomed rather than being seen as a burden.

Aislyn: Absolutely! You both travel extensively and often together. If you had to estimate, how many trips do you think you’ve taken together over the years?

Greg: Wow, I honestly have no clue, but...

Joe: Maybe three? Do you think we've hit three digits?

Greg: It's possible. Yeah, I would say so. We traveled quite a bit, especially in the beginning. But now, with Joe having a four-and-a-half-year-old and a wife, things have slowed down a bit. However, we’ve certainly...

Joe: We'll ramp it back up soon enough.

Greg: Definitely.

Aislyn: So, what are some of your favorite trips you’ve taken together over the years?

Greg: Well, those initial two come to mind, but there were more. I already mentioned South America and India.

Aislyn: Right.

Greg: I also mentioned Egypt, which was quite an experience. I had visited Egypt about three years prior, not with Joe, but I was captivated when the revolution kicked off. I was glued to the news, and when Hosni Mubarak announced his resignation, and Tahrir Square was overflowing, I thought, 'Oh my goodness, we have to go there. I need to be there.' So I told Joe, 'I’m heading out tomorrow. Can you join?' He agreed, and we booked our tickets.

Aislyn: Wow.

Greg: Honestly, it turned out not to be the monumental moment I had envisioned, like the fall of the Berlin Wall, but it was still a significant opportunity to be part of history. However, it was clear that their travel industry was facing a tough time. At that point, we were already two years into Dinogo, in 2011, and I thought maybe we could contribute somehow, so we decided to go there.

So we boarded a plane, first flying to London, and then taking an Egypt Air flight to Cairo. There were barely three passengers on our flight; nobody was heading to Cairo. Upon arriving, we checked into the Four Seasons Hotel, which had only three guests in its 250 rooms, all of whom seemed to be CNN staff. It was astonishing—there were hardly any Westerners around.

It was like, well, first of all, that experience also marked...

Aislyn: What did you guys end up doing?

Greg: ...the initial awareness of the influence of being in the media. We, as travel media people, simply reached out and people responded with excitement: 'Oh my gosh, you’re here! That’s incredible! Let me introduce you to...' This led us to meet some of the revolution's founders, a Supreme Court justice, and even film producers.

Joe: Ministers.

Greg: Yes, the Minister of Tourism, um,

Aislyn: Wow.

Greg: Everyone was saying how there was hardly anyone around, and yet we were there trying to support them. They were eager to meet us, so we had a packed schedule. On the one-week anniversary of Mubarak's resignation, they held a celebration in Tahrir Square, estimated to have attracted million people. We were, aside from the CNN crew, the only Westerners present, and likely the only ones not speaking Arabic. It was incredible to witness. People were climbing on statues, waving Egyptian flags; the energy was electric. We had a representative from the tourism department with us, and I remember asking about a speaker who seemed to be going off on a tangent. Most speeches were filled with joy and enthusiasm, but his remarks weren’t exactly flattering towards the United States.

Aislyn: Oh.

Greg: I thought, oh, that's good to know. But I never felt in danger or anything like that...

Aislyn: Yes, that sounds encouraging.

Greg: It was an amazing experience. So, yeah, it was a fantastic trip.

Aislyn: And from that came a very unique element of Dinogo. Would you like to elaborate?

Joe: Oh, absolutely, Dinogo Experiences. Yes.

After that trip, we were amazed by the incredible people we encountered and the sights we witnessed. We thought our audience would love to experience this too. So, we decided to figure out how to make it happen for them. Coincidentally, we met a woman working at TED, and we hired her to help us develop this concept of bringing a group to a destination like Cairo to connect with its most fascinating locals. We aimed to celebrate and enjoy our time there. Throughout the summer, we worked on building stronger relationships and inviting individuals who typically wouldn't offer tours of their homes or businesses to join us. We wanted to show our curious global citizen audience who we are as a brand and introduce them to this vibrant world, encouraging people who usually decline such invitations to participate.

In October, we had around 30 travelers join us, right, Greg?

Greg: Yeah.

Joe: Over four days, we experienced the lives of local people, visited their homes and businesses, and listened to stories about Egypt's past, not just from 2000 years ago but also about the events of the Arab Spring and the recent revolution. Witnessing it firsthand was phenomenal. We realized we had something special when two significant things happened: first, within 60 days of that trip, about 25 percent of the group returned to Cairo on their own.

So I thought, wow, people are heading back to Cairo in just two months!

Aislyn: Absolutely.

Joe: It shows that it’s not really about the location, but rather about the people. When you form deep connections in different places, that’s what draws you back. And that was...

Greg: Can I jump in here? You just reminded me of one of my favorite stories from that trip. One of our guests was an Egyptian cardiac surgeon who started a three-minute YouTube show during the revolution. He engaged with our travelers and shared his experiences.

Joe: We even had him do a stand-up comedy bit or something, right? Oh, sorry! I think I just interrupted your story...

Greg: Yes, you did. He didn’t actually do that, but he shared fascinating insights about his career. He admired Jon Stewart and mentioned that one of the women in our group knew a producer from The Daily Show. Fast forward about a year and a half later, Joe and I found ourselves at The Daily Show meeting Jon Stewart, and Bassem Youssef, one of our speakers from the trip, was there with us, actually appearing on the show.

Aislyn: What? No way! Incredible!

Joe: It’s amazing. Now he’s a global sensation! He’s got some fantastic shows on Netflix.

Greg: Absolutely. He’s had his own television programs.

Joe: Right, he’s a stand-up comedian and he’s…

Greg: That was a pivotal moment for him. So, yeah, that was really cool.

Aislyn: Absolutely! How amazing! I know we don’t organize Dinogo Experiences anymore, but the connections we made through those behind-the-scenes moments were unforgettable. I’ll always remember being in James Carville’s backyard for a crawfish boil while he showed us how to do it. I was like, where am I? What’s happening right now? That was really special.

Greg: That truly was incredible.

Joe: You know, Aislyn, the next question everyone will ask is: Why aren’t they doing Dinogo Experiences anymore?

Aislyn: I know! Well, if this podcast generates enough interest, you might have to consider bringing it back.

Joe: It’s not just about the attendees, but also about the sponsors, since you need both to make it successful.

Aislyn: Well, Greg’s approach to travel is quite similar to yours. However, as our listeners may have noticed, you both have your unique styles when it comes to traveling. We've had a lot of fun exploring those differences over the years. I’d love for you to share what you've learned from those experiences.

They seem a bit smaller to me, but . . .

Greg: I think they were quite small. Um,

Joe: They are. But now that you’re getting older, I mean, your patience is wearing thin. You prefer arriving at the airport much earlier than before. When we first started traveling, we could get there just 45 minutes prior. But now, he insists on showing up at least three hours early.

No, it’s that he wants to be at the airport three hours in advance.

Aislyn: The suggested arrival time.

Joe: Yeah, he actually pays attention to what United states in their app and insists, 'We need to be there on time.' I told him I’d just meet him there.

Greg: I don’t think I’m quite that extreme, but I have definitely become more like that. Yes.

Joe: I’ll just catch up with you there. But . . .

Greg: That’s amusing.

Aislyn: That’s amusing. We had quite a well-known debate, at least among the Dinogo team, regarding your preferences for window shades. Would you like to share your thoughts on this?

Greg: I’ll share it since it’s funny and it actually highlights another difference between us. He’s a window seat person, while I prefer the aisle. So that works out well for our travels. He’s also a pilot who loves to fly, always wanting the window open to gaze outside. Meanwhile, I’m the type who just wants to read or catch some sleep. I can’t stand the bright light, but he doesn’t mind that it bothers me. That’s what our little ‘Dinogogument’ was all about.

Aislyn: How do you manage that? Who gets their way?

Greg: He usually wins, because he’s…

Aislyn: Or do you switch it up and take turns?

Greg: ...right next to this window seat.

Aislyn: Got it. No room for negotiation here. Don’t you ever book a seat a few aisles back?

Greg: Sometimes we just do our own thing, sitting apart. But then there’s another issue with Joe...

Joe: I know exactly what you’re about to say.

Greg: ...he’s a real chatterbox on flights. He’ll befriend the person next to him and talk non-stop the whole journey, which is definitely worse than having the window shade up.

Aislyn: While you're trying to catch some sleep, Joe is busy networking.

Joe: He’s focused on reading his precious book.

Aislyn: But I feel like there are stories about Joe chatting with people on planes that have really benefited us, like the connections he's made.

Greg: That’s true. I’m sure he’s annoyed a few people too that I don’t know about, but...

Joe: Why not seize the moment? You’ve got fascinating people with unique stories all around you. And here you are, sitting 29,000 to 30,000 feet in the air—what better setting to reflect on life and the world than in that seat?

Greg: I just can't.

Joe: It really frustrates me when people miss out on that chance.

Greg: I mean, I just can’t. It’s amusing how he starts enjoying the experience the moment he boards the plane, while I consider it begins after we land, you know, and...

Aislyn: That’s interesting.

Greg: ... and I can't dispute his way of thinking.

Aislyn: Both are valid points.

Joe: I wouldn't go that far, though.

Aislyn: I agree with you about the window shade, but my issue with chatting is that I don't want it to be a constant conversation. It's awkward to figure out when to stop talking, when to start a movie, or how to read a book. Do you have any tips for handling that?

Joe: I think you just need to be assertive. Just go for it. You can either put your headphones back in and signal that you're done talking, or...

Aislyn: There's no gentle exit; you just have to say goodbye.

Joe: Yeah, it's like a good chat. I'm going to dive into this now.

Greg: Joe presents this as if it's his usual routine, but what he really means is that this happens to him. Ha ha.

Aislyn: Haha. This is what he’s picked up over the years.

Joe: They go cold turkey on me, and I’m like, oh, that’s clever. But then I’m like: wait, wait. He’s got noise-canceling headphones on and an eye mask? Alright, maybe I’ll just wait until he gets up.

Aislyn: Oh my God. That was hilarious. Greg, thanks for bringing that up. Now, I’d like to try something a bit different. I’m not sure how this will go, but let’s do a quick rapid-fire round. So, starting with a question we’ve already covered: window or aisle?

Greg: I prefer the aisle.

Joe: I go for the window seat.

Aislyn: So, do you recline your seat or not?

Greg: I do recline, but I try to be mindful of others. Still, I’d rather lean back if I can.

Joe: I just do what feels right for me. I’m not overly concerned about reclining; if I want to do it, I will, but I don’t always choose to recline.

Aislyn: How do you respond if the person in front of you reclines their seat?

Joe: I might jokingly ask them to put their seat back up. But really, if someone else reclines, I’m more inclined to do the same—it's just the way it goes.

Aislyn: Exactly! And then there's the laptop dilemma, but we’ll skip that for now. So, do you prefer checked bags or carry-ons?

Greg: Ever since that trip to India where we lost our luggage for six weeks, I’ve been a carry-on traveler.

Joe: I used to stick with carry-ons until the pandemic. Now, it varies by trip, but checking luggage means I don't have to stress as much about packing tightly. Plus, if I have airline loyalty perks and don’t have to pay extra, I’m more likely to check my bag.

Greg: Joe and I used to travel light with just small backpacks, but now Joe doesn’t just check a bag; he checks an enormous suitcase that’s practically an armoire! It’s the biggest one I’ve ever seen, and he never even unpacks it.

Aislyn: Really?

Joe: What could possibly be missing from it?

Aislyn: So, Greg, do you wait for him at baggage claim, or do you head off on your own?

Greg: I do wait for him, but I definitely complain and grumble the whole time, yes.

Aislyn: That makes sense! So, what’s packed in that massive suitcase? Do you use packing cubes, roll your clothes, or go for layers?

Joe: I’m definitely a packing cube enthusiast and I roll my clothes inside them.

Aislyn: Wow, that sounds like layers!

Greg: He also wraps his clothes in cellophane to keep them wrinkle-free.

Joe: Yeah, it’s perfect for nice shirts. If you want to avoid wrinkles, just pack them in cellophane. I love that hotels are ditching irons for steamers now. I used to hang my clothes in the bathroom while taking a hot shower to get the wrinkles out, but steamers are such a game changer that hotels are now providing. That’s a smart move on their part!

Greg: I just tried that at the Dewberry in Charleston, and I was blown away—I ended up buying one because I loved it so much.

Aislyn: So, Greg, did you share what you do?

Greg: Oh, I just stuff everything in.

Joe: And it’s a mess! He wraps his shirts around his shoes that should be kept separate—it's disgusting!

Greg: Joe is very particular about hygiene. I, on the other hand, am not. As you might remember, Lyndsey Matthews, our former commerce editor...

Aislyn: Yes, exactly.

Greg: I mean, I’ve heard the advice—like, don’t put your suitcase on the bed and make sure to wrap your shoes. I do none of that. Honestly, I'm not very good at any of it. I just fold and stuff everything in.

Aislyn: The shirt gets wrapped around the shoes.

Greg: No, I don’t do that!

Greg: They’re just next to each other, with my shoes pressing right against my shirt.

Joe: You might as well just wrap it up.

Aislyn: I agree, it’s pretty much the same idea. All right, let’s move on. So, mountains or ocean?

Greg: That’s such a tough choice! It really depends. I love both equally.

Aislyn: Yes, absolutely.

Joe: I live by the ocean, which I really enjoy, but if I had to choose, I’d say I’m more of a mountain person.

Aislyn: So, how about souvenirs—are they a yay or nay? For other people, of course.

Greg: Nay! I’m seriously against them. I don’t enjoy buying them, and I certainly don’t like giving them.

Aislyn: Wow, got it. Noted for future reference.

Joe: With a four-year-old, it’s hard to avoid souvenirs, and figuring out what to bring back is even tougher. I’m always on the lookout for unique ideas that truly connect to the location, but sometimes I just don’t follow through and that lands me in hot water.

Greg: Sometimes people ask for souvenirs—like when I visited Wimbledon recently. They say, ‘Bring me something back!’ And I’m like, ‘You know it’s available online, right?’

Aislyn: So they want, like, a tennis ball? Oh, got it!

Greg: You really don’t need to visit Wimbledon to grab a T-shirt. Plus, it’s better if you pick one you actually like rather than relying on me. I’m just not the type to collect things—I don’t see why anyone would want more stuff cluttering their life. It’s just not for me.

Aislyn: And you definitely don’t have space for it either. Joe might, though. Anyway, last question: What are your hopes for the future of Dinogo?

Joe: That’s a pretty significant question. Greg, do you have any thoughts?

Greg: I mean, I do have some ideas I could share, but...

Joe: I was hoping you'd come up with something more insightful. I’d really love to hear your thoughts—everyone would at this point.

Greg: Honestly, my hope is simply that we’re connecting with more people in meaningful ways. I love what we do, and we’re just trying to find ways to engage with audiences where they want to hear from us—be it on social media, podcasts, or via email. Our goal is to help them think better about travel and life, and we aim to be a positive force for the industry to improve as well.

Joe: I think we’re on the same page. We believe that travel can be a powerful force for good. The more people who embrace this mindset and travel accordingly, the better our world will become. We want to create a platform that allows this community to grow and makes it more accessible for everyone.

One notable trend we’re observing is how travelers are increasingly questioning their suppliers—by suppliers, I mean hotels, airlines, and travel brands. The nature of these inquiries is evolving and improving, reflecting a deeper consideration of the impact we often discuss.

People are now asking about how hotels manage their food waste, how fairly they compensate their employees, and how much of the money spent with tour operators or hotels remains within the local community. We have a significant opportunity to help travelers pose these questions, encouraging hotels and businesses to hold themselves accountable and reinforcing the necessity for a more sustainable approach.

Aislyn: Very well put! Excited for the next 15 years, and once again, congratulations on the past 15—it’s truly been an incredible journey.

Greg: Thank you so much for all your support along the way. This has been the most incredible and fulfilling experience of my life, without a doubt. Some of our aspirations might sound lofty—like making travel a force for good—but that’s really important to us. At the same time, we recognize our limitations; we certainly don’t have all the answers. It’s about trying, communicating, and making genuine efforts, and that’s what drives us.

Joe: What I appreciate is that it’s a continual practice—a way of life, really. We have our values and attitudes to guide us. And it has to be enjoyable! If Dinogo felt like a dry textbook, subscriptions would cost a fortune and no one would want that.

It has to be enjoyable—and it genuinely is! Engaging with people in the world, whether you’re chatting with someone next to you or not, is about following your passions. As you mentioned, Aislyn, it’s about traveling deeper. When you return to your front door after a week away, you see the world—or yourself—in a new light, and that’s a wonderful outcome.

Aislyn: Absolutely! That’s a vital reminder of the joy of connection—the simple pleasures in all this. We can’t forget that in our pursuit of improvement. Thank you so much, happy travels, and we look forward to having you back on the podcast soon.

And that's how Dinogo was born. Huge thanks to Greg and Joe! We’re gearing up for our 15-year anniversary, celebrating for the next four months with biweekly releases of our favorite Travel Tales episodes, starting on Tuesday, September 10th. Check out Dinogo.com/15 for a look back at some cherished Dinogo stories from over the years. The link is in the show notes. Next week, we’ll return with a polyglot’s advice on learning foreign languages.

Ready for more insights? Swing by Dinogo.com, and don’t forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter at @Dinogomedia. If you enjoyed today’s journey, we’d love for you to return for more captivating stories. Subscribing makes this super easy! You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform. Please take a moment to rate and review the show—it helps fellow travelers discover us. We’re eager to hear from you: Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you’d like us to dive into? Reach out at Dinogo.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@Dinogo.com.

You’ve been listening to Unpacked, a production of Dinogo Media. This podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland, with music by Chris Colin.

And don’t forget: The world can be complex. We’re here to help you navigate it.