S3, E7: Insights from a Decision Coach on Enhancing Travel Choices—and More

Making choices can be tough, and the inability to decide—whether it’s about travel destinations or meal options—is even worse. This week on Unpacked, a decision coach provides strategies for improving your decision-making in travel and beyond.

Transcript

Aislyn Greene, host:  I’m Aislyn Greene, and welcome to Unpacked, the podcast that explores one complex travel topic each week. Have you ever found yourself stuck in travel indecision or indecision in any part of your life? It can be incredibly frustrating and draining. Today’s guest specializes in helping people navigate through those moments of indecision and feeling stuck.

Her name is Nell McShane Wulfhart, and I’ve known her for many years as a travel writer, a role she continues to fulfill. Recently, I discovered that she has also spent the last decade as a professional decision-maker—and yes, in case you’re curious, she admits it’s a role she created for herself.

She’s so skilled at it that she’s launched a new podcast with Audible titled The Decision Coach. I wanted to hear her insights on why making decisions can be challenging, how we can improve our decision-making, and how these lessons apply to travel.

Alright, let’s listen to Nell.

Aislyn: Nell, welcome to Unpacked.

Nell: I really appreciate the invitation. I’m thrilled to be here.

Aislyn: We’re diving into a fascinating topic today, and I was so eager to connect with you. As soon as I received your email, I had to reach out because now, in addition to being an exceptional freelance writer, you’re also a professional decision-maker. How did this all come about?

Nell: First off, I should mention that if ‘professional decision-maker’ sounds like a title I invented, you’re right—I totally did. However, I’ve been at it for about 10 years now. Essentially, people reach out to me when they face tough choices, and I guide them on what to do. That’s the gist of it.

Aislyn: So, you’ve been doing this organically with friends and family. Are you naturally a great decision-maker?

Nell: I’ve always had a knack for making decisions and have been a bit of a professional ‘bossy boots’. I enjoy giving advice. I have that fixer mentality; when someone shares a problem with me, I can’t help but see the solution and start advising them. Eventually, my friends and family would say, ‘Enough already.’ Someone suggested that there might be people who actually want this kind of advice and would pay for it, and it turns out they do. Many people find decision-making difficult, and sometimes just having a neutral third party to provide input helps them break free and move forward in their lives.

Aislyn: That’s definitely true, especially for significant or even minor decisions. What trends have you noticed since you launched your business?

Nell: I’ve been doing this since 2013, so I’ve seen a wide variety of situations. Interestingly, a lot of them tend to be similar, with many people grappling with the choice between living in New York or Los Angeles.

Aislyn: Oh [laughs].

Nell: For some reason, those two cities frequently come up in discussions.

Aislyn: That’s hilarious.

Nell: Common questions include job offers—‘Should I accept this job offer?’ Career transitions are another big topic, like, ‘Should I continue in my current path or explore something completely new?’ ‘Should I have a baby?’ is also a frequently asked question. Additionally, ‘Should I get a divorce?’ is something people often seek my advice on.

There are also decisions that seem less significant, but people can become quite stuck on them. For instance, one woman reached out to help her decide on the color for her living room walls.

Another person was uncertain about whether to remove a tattoo or not.

Aislyn: That’s intriguing.

Nell: Yes, it really spans a wide range of issues.

Aislyn: It certainly does. How do you tackle these situations—since they vary greatly and carry different emotional weights—where do you start the process?

Nell: They all carry significant emotional weight, but what unites them is that the decision-making process has often taken a long time, and they usually reach a point where they feel like they’re spiraling.

The woman who needed help choosing a color for her living room had gone through a lot; her house had suffered a fire, and they were redecorating everything. She was simply overwhelmed with decisions. For some reason, she found it particularly difficult to make this final choice after having made so many others.

When it comes to major decisions like ‘Should I have a baby or another child?’ or ‘Should I relocate to a new city?’ or ‘Should I accept this job offer?’, the decision-making process is quite similar. Sure, the emotional stakes are higher, but what these individuals share is a sense of being stuck and the need to take some form of action.

Sometimes, it almost doesn’t matter what that action is, as long as they take a step forward. My role is to help them accomplish that.

Aislyn: What do you think causes people to feel stuck?

Nell: I believe there are two types of individuals. First, there are the chronically indecisive people who struggle with simple choices, like what to wear in the morning or what to have for dinner. At some point, I think we all find ourselves in that situation.

However, I find that most of my clients are actually high-achieving, Type-A personalities. For reasons I haven't quite figured out—I wish I could—there are times when even these high achievers find themselves stuck on a decision. They often need someone to help pull them out of that swamp of indecision so they can move forward, and then they take action on that decision without looking back. I rarely hear from them again because they’re doing well.

There are indeed those two types of decision-makers. The chronically indecisive individuals need to learn to make many more quick decisions, while those who get stuck on a significant choice just require some temporary guidance before they’re back on track.

Aislyn: Absolutely. I know some chronically indecisive individuals, and it can be really challenging because it feels like every decision is a potential disaster.

Nell: It’s terrible. I genuinely empathize with them, and I try to equip them with decision-making strategies during our sessions because I want to help them make quicker choices in the future. Making decisions more rapidly is crucial, as it saves so much time.

Aislyn: Do you think for those individuals—and it might vary—that they hesitate because they don’t want to close off any options in their lives? Making a decision can feel like shutting down another pathway, right?

Nell: Exactly. They’re afraid to close any doors. It all boils down to a fear of regret. The essence of decision-making is really about minimizing that regret. No one wants to experience that uncomfortable feeling of thinking, "I should have chosen differently." For some people, that fear can be paralyzing.

It’s tough to accept that, yes, there will be decisions you make that you’ll wish you hadn’t. However, I believe what people regret most is the time—hours, days, weeks, months, even years—spent in the decision-making process.

Aislyn: Why do you think it’s so easy to make poor decisions or get stuck in indecision?

Nell: Indecision is definitely more challenging. In terms of making choices, I don’t have a crystal ball to foresee the future. My role is to help you evaluate the information you currently have and your desired direction to determine which path seems most viable. Sometimes, you just can’t predict how a situation, like a new job, will turn out—what if your boss turns out to be a micromanager? There are elements we simply can’t know in advance.

So while there certainly are bad decisions, the key is to make the best choice possible with the information at hand. No decision is truly the worst option. The time and mental energy wasted on indecision could be spent on more productive things. As you mentioned, it’s about the fear of regret, the anxiety over making a poor choice, and the discomfort of letting go of something good. I recently wrote a newsletter on "how to say no to good things" because making a choice often means giving up the benefits of what you didn’t select. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice something good to attain something truly great.

Aislyn: How do you think we could improve our ability to make good decisions?

Nell: First, it's crucial to become quicker in our decision-making. Generally, I recommend that people consider how much time they believe they need to make a choice and then cut that time in half. This idea often intimidates people because they worry about leaving any stone unturned or feel they need to conduct more research.

However, the quality of your decision typically won’t suffer just because you took less time to arrive at it. Plus, you reclaim all that time for other uses. I believe that experimenting is far more beneficial. For instance, if you’re contemplating starting a side hustle, you could spend six months mulling it over, or you could dive in and, in six months, you’ll know whether or not it’s right for you. You’ll gather real, actionable data, making taking action far more effective than prolonged deliberation.

Aislyn: Absolutely. How significant do you think intuition is in decision-making, and how do you incorporate that into your work?

Nell: The challenge with decision-making often lies in the belief that we must rely solely on logical reasoning and decisions that look good on paper. However, my experience over the past decade has shown me that people will ultimately follow their true desires, what they genuinely want deep down.

My main role is to help them clarify what they truly desire and then provide them with a sort of permission slip, saying, “It’s perfectly fine to pursue that.” Because most of the time, it really is.

When we refer to what we call our "gut feelings," it can mean different things, but essentially, when we tune into how our body reacts to a decision—like what our stomach tells us—we're actually considering all the details. If your gut instinct says, “No, don’t go there,” that’s valid. Just choose not to proceed and instead opt for another path.

Aislyn: Right. And just move forward.

Nell: Exactly, just move on.

Aislyn: Given that we’re discussing travel, where do you think people tend to get stuck when making decisions about traveling or living overseas? You have quite a bit of experience living abroad.

Nell: People often find themselves stuck in various areas, but I believe the primary challenge is deciding, “Where should I go?” I was actually thinking I might offer a service for that. Given my extensive travels—having lived in so many places around the world and worked in travel writing—I’m ideally suited to guide others on their vacation choices.

Aislyn: Absolutely! Or even where to settle down.

Nell: Exactly. I frequently receive calls about that, and I genuinely enjoy discussing it.

Aislyn: That sounds amazing. Really fascinating.

Nell: I believe that's the main issue. With so many options available today—the world feels so accessible—it can be overwhelming to narrow down choices. I think most people spend a significant amount of time here, but once they do, they can usually make a decision quite swiftly.

Aislyn: Understood. How would you kick off the process? If I had no idea where to go, what would be your first step with me?

Nell: Well, I could offer some standard questions like, “Do you prefer warm or cold climates? Are you drawn to beaches or perhaps icebergs?” However, I believe the key is to reflect inwardly and ask, “What kind of person am I?” When it comes to travel decisions, as with any other choices in life, we should make decisions that align with who we truly are, rather than who we wish to become. This is crucial.

People often say, “Oh, I could do this. I should try that.” Those phrases raise red flags for me. If you generally dislike crowds and long waits, you’re unlikely to enjoy them just because you find yourself in Rome.

Think about your everyday preferences and what makes you uncomfortable. You can eliminate many destinations by considering factors like, “I don’t want to be in a crowded space” or “I enjoy being outdoors every day.” Start by applying those everyday preferences to your travel choices.

Aislyn: That’s insightful. Do you notice that many people struggle with this? Like focusing on what they should do or the person they aspire to be, influenced by what they see in the world?

Nell: Absolutely. This applies not just to travel but to all decision-making. Many people feel pressured during their trips because travel is limited and the experience is brief. They often think they should be doing as much as possible, like ‘go, go, go,’ fearing they won’t return. This creates tension between what they feel they ought to do and what they genuinely want to do.

People really wrestle with this. I was chatting with a friend who mentioned that when she visits a new city, she always checks out the natural history museum and the secondhand shops. I thought—

Aislyn: That’s fantastic.

Nell: —that’s her routine. It’s wonderful! Those are activities she enjoys, and she can experience them in a new setting. To me, that’s an ideal way to establish personal guidelines. Consider what you love doing on a Saturday in your hometown; then, just do that in a different place, like Addis Ababa or wherever.

Aislyn: It’s amusing how we often overlook this. Time off is precious, right? We travel to unwind and enjoy ourselves, yet we burden ourselves with all these ‘shoulds’ and—

Nell: People are overwhelmed by all these 'shoulds.' While it's natural to have some, like not missing out on key experiences, many people impose far too many on themselves. This can really diminish the joy of your trip and vacation.

You need to consider your personality. Are you the type who wakes up at five-thirty a.m., maintains a detailed to-do list, completes chores, juggles hobbies, works, and then goes to bed at seven? If so, it makes sense to fill your itinerary. Go for it, more power to you!

On the other hand, if you’re someone who rises around nine or ten, savors a leisurely coffee, enjoys moving at a relaxed pace, and isn’t rushed about dinner reservations, you can enjoy that anywhere and still have a wonderful time.

Aislyn: Exactly. It all circles back to that permission slip idea. Do you actually write something like that for people? I’d love to see it if you do.

Nell: No, no, it’s more of a metaphor. Although I've been tempted! I’ve jokingly offered to send people emails saying it's perfectly fine to decline a job offer or to end a relationship.

Aislyn: You could even create a little certificate for it.

Nell: I could! Maybe whip something up on Canva and share it with folks. That’s not a bad thought at all. Perhaps I should consider it.

Aislyn: You touched on this a bit, but it seems like there are two main types of travel decision-making. First, there’s the big questions, like “Where should I go? What should I do?” Then there are the daily decisions you make during your trip. Do you approach these differently, and what advice do you have for people navigating them?

Nell: Absolutely, you have far less time for the daily decisions than for the big ones, which is actually a good thing. You’ll often need to quickly choose between going to a museum or enjoying coffee and cake at a charming café. Most people handle those kinds of choices pretty well on the spot.

However, I recommend a strategy for those who often feel overwhelmed by the options available to them while traveling. I love the idea of planning ahead—deciding on a theme for your trip before you go. You know how people like to choose a theme or a word for the year?

Aislyn: Absolutely, yes.

Nell: I don’t focus on that much myself, but I think viewing your trip through the lens of how you want to feel by the end is valuable. Consider questions like, “Is this trip meant for exploration? Discovery? Relaxation? Comfort?”

If you can establish that word or theme before your journey begins, it makes it easier to navigate decisions on the fly. You can refer back to that word and ask yourself, “Which of these options aligns best with my vacation theme? Which fits my vision for this trip?” That way, your choices can be guided by that framework.

Aislyn: That seems like it would also help reduce decision fatigue, which we didn’t touch on earlier. Especially in a new environment where sensory overload can occur. Do you believe decision fatigue is a genuine issue?

Nell: Oh, definitely! I remember when I was living in Vietnam, some friends came to visit after traveling through Asia, and one of them remarked, “It’s such a relief to have someone else decide where we’re eating tonight.”

It was like, you know, these two had been backpacking for months, and every day it turned into a discussion of, “Where are we eating dinner? What do you think?” Just having the ability to delegate some of those decisions made a difference.

Absolutely, decision fatigue is a real challenge. If you can streamline your options and identify, “This one aligns with my theme of discovery, or this fits my comfort theme,” it becomes much simpler.

Aislyn: And perhaps we should give ourselves permission to occasionally make mistakes. Not mistakes in a negative sense, but with the way travel is portrayed on social media, it’s easy to feel everything needs to be perfect. It’s perfectly fine to choose a bistro you’ve never heard of just because it smells good or has an inviting sign.

Nell: Yes, definitely. This ties back to understanding what kind of person you are. If you’re someone who plans everything meticulously, making restaurant reservations for each night—like I’m going on a trip to Yellowstone with my partner’s family in August. They’ve already secured dinner, rafting, and hotel bookings for a trip that’s still months away.

I personally don’t operate that way, but if that gives them peace of mind, I’m all for it. I’m just going along for the ride. However, if you’re the type who finds that stressful and feels pressured to rush reservations when you’d rather savor a glass of wine by the river, it’s crucial to remember what works for you.

Undoubtedly, one of the most significant decisions is who you’re traveling with. It’s crucial to ensure that everyone is on the same wavelength, as that can greatly affect the experience.

Aislyn: Do you have any tips for selecting the right travel companions?

Nell: That’s definitely a tricky one. If someone is suggesting a trip together, you likely know them to some extent already.

So, take your time before responding. Consider, “Do I really want to spend all this time with this person? Will they be waking up at 5:30 AM while I prefer to sleep until 8? Will they want to explore a museum when I’d rather check out the flea market?”

A helpful approach could be to say, “Sure, let’s think about Paris. Why don’t you share what your ideal day looks like, and I’ll share mine? Let’s see if there are any overlaps.” This should clarify whether you’re suited to travel together.

Aislyn: Yeah, or we could just say, “Let’s meet up in the city. We’ll each have our own adventures and then share dinner together.”

Nell: That’s actually a fantastic idea! Since we’ll both be in Paris, we can enjoy a couple of dinners together. I love it!

Aislyn: One challenging aspect of traveling is when things go awry, like getting sick or having a hotel reservation canceled. You often have to make quick decisions. Do you have any advice for handling those tricky moments?

Nell: In those situations, it often feels like all options are undesirable. Sometimes there aren’t many choices, so it doesn’t matter much what you decide. This is actually more true in our daily lives than we realize; often, it’s not that crucial.

During my decision-making workshops, I encourage people to reflect on their values beforehand—not religious or moral values, but the things that genuinely bring them joy in daily life. This could be having control over your time, financial stability, recognition for your efforts, or even just having time to walk your dog every day, whatever it may be.

If you have a clear understanding of your values for the trip, like prioritizing saving money and sticking to a budget, it makes decision-making easier. You can choose the most economical options, even if they require a bit more time or effort.

I think it’s important for everyone to reflect on their values, not just generally, but especially before embarking on a trip.

Aislyn: I love that perspective! Do you have any specific examples of travel decisions you’ve made that you were pleased with? Or maybe decisions about moving to a new location? How do you approach making those choices?

Nell: I’ve lived in places like Saigon, Colombo in Sri Lanka, and Seoul in Korea. For all three, my thought process was simply, “That looks nice. I’m going!” My last two relocations to Uruguay and Switzerland were influenced by my partner’s job. I can advise people from anywhere, so being here works for me.

To be honest, my decisions were heavily influenced by my top value: good food. The culinary scene in those places was a huge draw. Affordability and climate are usually my main considerations when choosing a location, too.

Aislyn: I love this perspective! It seems like you don’t get too attached to any specific outcomes—you appear open to possibilities. You're willing to explore places that catch your interest and see where they lead you.

Nell: That’s definitely true for me. Perhaps even more so when I was younger. I firmly believe that most decisions can be undone. If you move somewhere and it’s not to your liking, you can often just leave. And if finances are a concern, set aside some ‘escape money’ before you go. If it doesn’t work out, you can always leave.

You can always change your mind. Many people remain stuck in places, jobs, or relationships that don’t make them happy, knowing they should move on but struggling to do so. I advocate for the idea that leaving doesn’t have to be seen as quitting; think of it as pivoting or, as a friend calls it, quiveting. Just explore a different path altogether.

Aislyn: I really resonate with that! It seems like there’s a cultural expectation, especially in the U.S., to stick with things, but that mindset doesn’t always serve us well.

Nell: Absolutely! So many people should have let go of things long before they finally do. I’m a huge supporter of quitting when it’s necessary, for sure.

Aislyn: We have two listener questions for you, and I’ll start with the first one from Christina. She says, "This year is my mother’s 70th birthday, and she and my sister are eager to take a big trip to Scandinavia. Meanwhile, my husband wants us to finally go on that long-awaited three-week trip to China. If we try to do both, it’ll stretch our finances significantly, but life is short. What should I do?"

Nell: If you can manage to do both trips without causing yourself major financial strain, then absolutely, life is too short to miss out on experiences like these! But if you must choose, remember that those milestone birthdays happen only every decade. If you cherish time with your mother and sister, that trip would be a wonderful present. You can always plan the trip to China for next year. However, if it’s possible to make both work and you’re willing to cut back on everyday expenses, like dining out, go for it! You’re bound to have a fantastic year.

If you genuinely enjoy spending time with your mother and sister, that trip would be a heartfelt gift. You can always do the China trip next year. But I truly believe if you can manage both and are prepared to sacrifice some luxuries, like dining out or other everyday expenses, then you should definitely go for it. It could be an incredible year for you!

Aislyn: That’s wonderful! It sounds like she might already have a sense of what she wants but is seeking reassurance.

Nell: It’s quite common for clients to think they’re unsure of their desires, yet often they already know what they want deep down. My role is simply to help bring that clarity to the surface.

Aislyn: Absolutely! This question might be a bit tricky since it comes from Inez, who isn't here. In the newsletter where I requested questions, I referenced your tattoo scenario. She wrote, “You talked about tattoos, and I’ve always dreamed of getting one while traveling. At 39, I still don’t have one.” She asked, “A) Is it crazy to consider this at my age? And B) How do I know if a tattoo artist is suitable for me, especially abroad? Plus, if I’m unsure of what I want, where should I start?”

Nell: Honestly, I don’t have much experience with tattoos, but I can confidently say that you’re never too old for one. In fact, age should never be a barrier to doing what you desire. There’s absolutely no downside to getting a tattoo at 39.

Thinking back, I remember the tattoos I considered getting at 20, and I’m so glad I didn’t go through with them. Getting tattoos when you’re young and impulsive can be a huge mistake. So, yes, embrace who you are! It could even be a fantastic 40th birthday gift to yourself. As for finding the right tattoo artist, once you choose your travel destination, check out Instagram. Look for artists whose work impresses you, and take it from there. Social media can really help you out!

Aislyn: Definitely! Inez, make sure to share with us when you finally get your tattoo and what design you choose.

Nell: Yes, please send us a picture! I can’t wait to see it.

Aislyn: One of my friends got a Superman logo tattooed on his chest when he was 19. We’ve lost touch over the years, and I’ve often wondered—did he have it removed? Is it still there? That’s quite a distinct choice...

Nell: Right.

Aislyn: So, yes, I believe waiting until you’re 39 or 40 is a wise decision. No Superman logos for you; it shows you’re sure about what you want.

Nell: Exactly! You have to be genuinely committed to it, knowing you’ll always love Superman. One of my aunts just got her first tattoo at around 61, and she recently added another one. They look fantastic, and she feels amazing—truly, it’s never too late!

Aislyn: That’s awesome! I’d love to hear more about your podcast. Would you mind sharing some details?

Nell: I’m excited to share about my podcast! I created it in collaboration with Audible, and the whole process took nearly a year, which was a surprise to me. Podcasting is quite intricate and involves a lot of work. It’s titled The Decision Coach and you can find it on Audible, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts.

The podcast is essentially a condensed version of my coaching sessions. There are six episodes in total, each featuring a guest who is facing a significant decision. We’ve got someone contemplating dropping out of college, another deciding whether to move from Australia to L.A. to pursue acting, and a woman figuring out whether to leave a marriage without intimacy.

In each episode, I guide them through their decision-making process, providing plenty of actionable tips that listeners can apply to their own lives. I believe they’re both useful and enjoyable to listen to.

Aislyn: Absolutely! We’ll include a link to that in the show notes. You also mentioned a newsletter—would that be a good way for listeners to connect with you?

Nell: Yes, definitely! You can visit decisioncoach.com to sign up for my newsletter, which goes out every couple of weeks. It’s filled with decision-making tips, suggestions, and examples—just a lot of helpful information.

Aislyn: Fantastic! Thank you so much for joining us, Nell. It’s truly been a pleasure.

Nell: Thank you for having me! It’s always a delight to see you.

Aislyn: That was Nell, the professional decision coach. Christina and Inez, please keep us posted on what you decide, and feel free to share photos! As I mentioned, I’ll include links to Nell’s podcast, her website, and social media in our show notes. See you all next week!

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This has been Unpacked, a Dinogo Media production. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland, with music by Chris Colin. And remember: The world can be complex, but we’re here to help you navigate it!